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#1
05-22-2006, 03:34 PM
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Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
Poob Post. (part1)
(Poob is easier to type than Pooh-Bah so I'm calling all Pooh-bahs Poobs from here on out) I'm also doing a trilogy cos I can't decide which topic to choose and I have 3 that I can write about so... TAG v LAG it seems to me that TAGS seems to be more than a little misunderstood on these here forums. Lets look at the terminology here forra second. TAG - Tight AGgressive. Widely touted as far and away the best way of playing at SSNL. It should also be the first style of play that you learn - it's the easiest to play for starters as you play less hands and cnsequently keep yourself out of trouble. TAG consists of 3 letters T A G. LAG - Loose AGgressive. Widely thought of as being the most profitable way to play poker at any level - almost always without exception people that play LAG at $100NL and below are very bad at it. - it's a very difficult style to play well for any prolonged period - much thinking is required and it takes a lot of energy and focus to play well. LAG consists of 3 letters L A G. Put these 2 groups of letters side by side and you'll notice only one difference. The first letter T or L. Both players are aggressive - one plays less hands than the other and that ought to be the ONLY difference between the two. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I see a lot of players saying "so-and-so villain is a TAG" - "they have TAG stats" when in fact most likely the villain in question isn't TAG at all they are more likely to be Tight Passive (Rocks) or wishy washy Weak/Tight players. TAG stats (at a 6max table) ought to look something I think along the lines of 25/15/3 over a decent sample size. 20/10/1 is most definitely in my book NOT TAG. Less preflop raise % than that and they aren't aggressive enough to qualify in my book as TAG - Less postflop aggression than that and they don't qualify either. There is so much more to TAG play than having a 20% vp$ip. Both TAG players and LAG players need to be aggressive in the hands they do play. LAG play lives or dies on the quality of the reads made by the player. A LAG by virtue of the fact that they more hands requires much more energy and effort to play than a TAG does - so they get tired faster. A tired player doesn't play nearly so well as a fresh alert player. Playing NL where one little mistake can cost you 2 hours of work it becomes so much more important to play good and not make silly mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes - pobodies nerfect but the more hands you play and the more reads you have to make then the bigger the chance you have of making a mistake. A TAG plays less pots so can play longer sessions - with greater levels of concentration than a LAG can. TAGs ought to be just as aggressive - and play just as fast as a LAG does - the only difference is that they play less hands and the hands they are playing are generally better than a LAGs hands because they choose better starting hands. The TAG has to make the same reads that the LAG does - altho they are a lttle easier to make as an observant opponent just isn't going to war with a TAG without a reasonable hand. A TAG can be much more comfortable laying down TPGK than a LAG can because the LAG is never quite sure if the villain is simply playing back because of their table image or because they have the goods this time. Conversely a TAG gives less action so is likely to get less action - a LAG will get their good hands paid off so much more often - balanced against that is the fact that a LAG continually has to make more and harder decisions and will often burn through money losing small pots that a TAG just wouldn't play. People seem attracted to LAG style because a LAG makes more money. I think a GOOD LAG will earn more than a good TAG ever will - they key word here being GOOD. simply because they play more hands. Playing LAG badly however IMO is the easiest fastest way to lose at poker. Playing LAG averagely will not make you as much as playing TAG, and LAG play is orders of magnitude harder than TAG. Good TAG play is difficult to learn and difficult to play well. It's easier than other styles but it's no cakewalk. Having said all that you can't play only one style - you need to be able to play (and counter) both of these strategies if you want to be a successful winning player in the long run. in HOH1 Dan says "paradoxically you make the easiest money at a poker table playing in a style that is opposite to the style of your main game" - which is very true - a TAG can bluff much more successfully than a LAG can as they bluff less frequently - a LAG can switch to TAG play and make a pile of easy money by getting their good hands paid off while unobservant opponents think that they are still bluffing often when in fact they are not. I think beginners would do well learning TAG play and learning it well. You get to be just as aggressive as the LAG does - just less often. Don't worry about moving into LAG until you can read hands at least moderately well. If you don't often have a good idea of what a villain holds by the time you get to the turn/river LAG is not for you just yet. TAG play should be the solid foundation of your game at SSNL. Once you can play it well and actually understand what TAG is all about then you can move on to different styles. Learn to stand up - then learn to walk - then run - then walk on your hands - then add backflips somersaults and cartwheels. At small stakes tables ABC TAG play makes a decent profit. At SSNL tables vs weak ooponents who call too often LAG is flawed. A LAG relies often on fold equity which at a small stakes table often isn't there. I think unless you are a modest winning player who has a good few thousand hands under their belt and have "graduated" to $100NL at a minimum then your main focus of poker learning ought to be TAG play. By all means take shots - try out new stuff - have a go at LAG play - experiment and above all have fun - this is a game we play after all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] - but nail the TAG stuff down first - focus most of your attention on being able to play TAG well. Once you have that accomplished, once you have laid good foundations it's so much easier to then move onto LAG or whatever other style you want to play. I think the single biggest mistake people make trying to play TAG is not being AG nearly enough. and it's postflop play and aggressiveness that is far and away more important than how tight/loose you are preflop. Learn when you can be aggressive - Learn how to focus the aggression at the right players at the right times - Learn to read hands well so you can tell when you are beat and should lay down your hand. I think all of this stuff is much more important than "LAGging it up" - I think players ought to first learn how to AG it up with good hands before trying the same thing with marginal hands. Small stakes tables should be where aspiring players learn the basics and teach themselves to become "slow grinders" slowly but surely making modest profits. At higher levels of SSNL $100+ LAG becomes more useful players pay more attention and your fold equiy is greater. Although there is a lot to be said for learning to play LAG at small stakes where you don't risk as much - making the mistakes at a low cost and then moving back to the $100NL+ level and finding LAG play a little easier cos you now have more Fold Equity. Just wait until you have TAG nailed down. Wait until you get good at the AG part of TAG. Wait until the foundations are set and ready - and then start building. Interestingly once you get as far as midstakes play basic ABC TAG is like painting a giant target on your head and is easily exploitable because it is so predictable but thats no excuse to catch a case of FPS at small stakes and thats a whole different post topic... 
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#2
05-22-2006, 04:42 PM
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Re: Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Pooh-Bah posts!
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#3
05-22-2006, 04:47 PM
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Re: Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
nice post Matrix.. i have to make my Carpal post soon, but unfortunately i don't know much about any one topic.
except for tilt - which i might actually post about.
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#4
05-22-2006, 04:52 PM
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Re: Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
Nice post. I look forward to the next two that you mention. Fortunately I'm not that well-known on here nor as respected so I don't forsee myself having to write a poo-bah post when I get there. Nice hand.
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#7
05-22-2006, 05:37 PM
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Re: Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
[ QUOTE ]
20/10/1 is most definitely in my book NOT TAG. [/ QUOTE ] Damn it! I'm not even a TAG! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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#8
05-22-2006, 05:44 PM
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Re: Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
[ QUOTE ]
Both players are aggressive - one plays less hands than the other and that ought to be the ONLY difference between the two. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is oversimplifying things. LAGs will make certain post flop moves that TAGs will not. From the post above, it looks like the only difference is preflop.
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#9
05-22-2006, 05:44 PM
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Re: Poob Post - LAG vs TAG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 20/10/1 is most definitely in my book NOT TAG. [/ QUOTE ] Damn it! I'm not even a TAG! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I think 20/10/4 should be considered TAG though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Nice post.
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