(2/4) I'm raised on turn with TPTK

GMMigge · #1 05-16-2006, 09:38 PM

Villain is unknown.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (6 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets

Against an unknown on Party 2/4, is this okay or is simply 3-betting the turn standard?

djhoneybear · #2 05-16-2006, 09:54 PM

I would 3-bet the turn and lead the river. I could probably fold to a turn cap but without one its tough to let this go.

W. Deranged · #3 05-16-2006, 10:02 PM

If we three-bet and get capped on the turn, we'll be facing over 10-1 to call the cap, and we have an average of 6 outs against Aces Up. So we'd end up wanting to put in 4 bets anyway, and then be faced with folding the river getting 12-1.

The downside to your line is that if you intend to call the river if raised, you are allowing your opponent to play close to perfectly: putting in 3bb when behind and 4 bb when ahead. Three-betting and leading makes him have to put in 4 bb when behind as well.

So, it's a tough situation. Both lines have negatives. As it stands, your hand is probably strong enough that you can take the risk by three-betting, as you're going to be ahead very often. With a weaker hand, or with a hand I felt comfortable folding to a river raise, I might be more inclined to take your line.

So I vote three-bet.

lautzutao · #4 05-16-2006, 10:16 PM

I think you want to 3-bet this turn and go from there. If he caps he's got TPTK beat.

Verde · #5 05-16-2006, 10:24 PM

Does a turn cap mean we are calling UI on the river?

And what Aces up combinations would we like enough to bet out on the river or try for a check raise?

livinitup0 · #6 05-16-2006, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If we three-bet and get capped on the turn, we'll be facing over 10-1 to call the cap, and we have an average of 6 outs against Aces Up. So we'd end up wanting to put in 4 bets anyway, and then be faced with folding the river getting 12-1.

The downside to your line is that if you intend to call the river if raised, you are allowing your opponent to play close to perfectly: putting in 3bb when behind and 4 bb when ahead. Three-betting and leading makes him have to put in 4 bb when behind as well.

So, it's a tough situation. Both lines have negatives. As it stands, your hand is probably strong enough that you can take the risk by three-betting, as you're going to be ahead very often. With a weaker hand, or with a hand I felt comfortable folding to a river raise, I might be more inclined to take your line.

So I vote three-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just cant see being good if capped even one 1 to 12 with no real read. I 3 bet and reluctantly fold to a cap.

If just called of course Im leading and wishing I had the balls to give him the river sexy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Kwaz · #7 05-16-2006, 11:04 PM

Gmigge,

Was this your thought process?:

- This guy is either semi-bluffing or he has a strong hand.
- I don't think my hand has enough strength against his made hand range and I'm not sure this unknown would semibluff often enough to open myself up to a cap, so I can't 3bet.
- He'll bet his weaker hands on the river anyway, so I'm not losing out and I'm definitely not folding. I'll just call his turn raise and river bet.
- River is a spade. [censored]. His semibluff just got there. But now his weaker hands might check behind. I've got the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he might get scared of the flush.
- I'm losing out from his weaker hands if I check here but his strong hands have me crushed here and I can easily fold to a raise.

I bet/fold.

Sandberg · #8 05-16-2006, 11:22 PM

There's a whole bunch of Big Ace hands that we are beating on the turn plus we have outs against the probable two pair hands. A9 or a set are clearly the scariest of all possible cards. I three bet the turn. He's not capping without a hand that beats us. So three bet, call a cap and fold the river UI(that is, if he caps the turn). If the board pairs, I would check/call his bet.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #9 05-16-2006, 11:23 PM

I just call down once raised on the turn. You need a specific read before 3betting the turn or call/donking the river will be right here. Dont spew, just call down and hope to win.

GMMigge · #10 05-16-2006, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Gmigge,

Was this your thought process?:

- This guy is either semi-bluffing or he has a strong hand.
- I don't think my hand has enough strength against his made hand range and I'm not sure this unknown would semibluff often enough to open myself up to a cap, so I can't 3bet.

- He'll bet his weaker hands on the river anyway, so I'm not losing out and I'm definitely not folding. I'll just call his turn raise and river bet.
- River is a spade. [censored]. His semibluff just got there. But now his weaker hands might check behind. I've got the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he might get scared of the flush.
- I'm losing out from his weaker hands if I check here but his strong hands have me crushed here and I can easily fold to a raise.

I bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if my thought process was this sophisticated, but there were two specific thoughts I had:

1) I really want to go to showdown here. The guy is unknown, and I hate folding hands this decent to complete unknowns in a pot that will be reasonably big.

2) He could making a free showdown raise, because that's what all the cool guys do nowadays.

Since I want to go to showdown, I didn't like 3-betting the turn because we could very well be behind here and most better hands will cap which would suck.

And because he could very well be raising for a free showdown with some PP's or be value-raising with weaker aces (which we are way ahead of), I didn't like checking the river since he could very well check behind those hands.

Therefore, with these two thoughts put together, my specific plan was to call the turn raise and donk any river; I wasn't that afraid of the flush since I hade the ace of spades.

The problem is of course what to do if we're UI on the river and he raises my donkbet. The right thing would probably be to fold, but I know I wouldn't. I would call the raise, and console myself that I at least got to see the showdown for 1 bet cheaper than if I had 3-bet the turn. Also, the pot would be 10 big bets big and we could be ahead against some donkeys who I could see raising the river with AQ/AJ. Finally, we get to see his cards which I wouldn't mind here against this unknown.

Calling-donk/calling guarantees a showdown and that we get in 3-4 bets when we're ahead and losing maximum 3-4 bets when we're losing. 3-betting the turn makes us 4 bets when we're ahead and risks either to see the showdown for 5 bets or paying 4 bets while folding without seeing his cards (and possibly folding a winner).