Poker, Societal Intolerance.

[chicagoY]

So I'm at the wedding last night of one of my friends and I'm at the "singles table" with another friend, three random guys and four women. The "girls" were a few years older than me and well into the bitter stage of their thirties. Physically, none of them were attractive and I say that as an older guy. If I were a young 2p2 dude, used to college chicks, they'd all be total trolls.

So anyway, I'm talking to my friend all night and the subject comes round to my upcoming trip to Vegas. One of the girls is eavesdropping and wants to know "if (I'm) a gambler or something." I tell her no that I play poker.
Another girl also is eavesdropping and announces, "Oh, that's not gambling?"
Now I've only been nice and friendly to the table and I noted that their tone was adversarial and rude, but I answered anyway. I said that yes it was gambling but that I thought I had a long term edge due to my study, my hard work, that I try to learn from the better pokers (like most of you here), and that I am smart enough to stay away from the guys who can trounce me. Also, I have no poker ego and have no desire to test my ability in games my BR can't afford--blah, blah, blah, I explain it all thoroughly.

The trolls begin laughing at me and one of them decides, that I have "a gambling addiction" because I play poker for 10 hours a week (more like 15 but I lowballed the estimate). I pointed out that
1. I'm a long term winner.
2. I enjoy the game and love playing.
3. Even though I'm not real good, I do get better each month which, frankly, is kind of fun.

They, now all three of the nosy Normas, disagree and say I'm a gambling addict.

At this point I got mighty irritated because I went out of my way to give them a fine explanation and none of them listend to me. I didn't show my anger but I did lecture them. I explained that it was nice that they had opinions but that they were mistaken to share them as they know nothing about poker or addiction. The latter I happen to know quite a bit about from work so I went over the three-tier model of addiction--use, tolerance, withdrawal--which, of course, they had no answer for. They repeated their claim that I was an addict. I then suggested that they study the matter and come back and talk to me once they were less ignorant on the subject which was a less aggressive response than they deserved.

Luckily, the conversation died and I resumed eating dinner. Later, one of them asked me if I had a girlfriend and if "I did a lot of partying in Vegas when I went to 'play poker.'"
I shook my head and said that poker and alcohol don't mix. They scoffed at this and I intentionally didn't answer their GF question although my GF is a real life gambler who, embarassingly, loves the slots (I know). When they repeated the GF question I said it was personal and asked if they'd would allow me to finish eating in peace. My friend and I hit the dancefloor shortly thereafter but I don't think I'll be mentioning poker to any girls in the future--even though, in this instance, I would have needed a substantial cash bonus with r--back and a couple of sweatshirts just to touch one of them.

[Xellos]

Yeah, in general people are pretty stupid. If I was to make the mistake of telling someone I played a lot of poker I usually say "sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, I like playing" or "gambling's fun". If you say you win they either don't believe you or want to hear more about the mystery of beating borderline retards at a card game, and as you found out, trying to explain magical things like having an "edge" flies right by their heads, so it's better to avoid that part of the conversation.

[kibble420]

One day I made the mistake of telling my mom that I like to play poker, usually $5 and $10 tourneys. My mom then lectured me on how I shouldn't do that because I can lose my entire life savings.

One week later she calls me to tell me that she saw a TV show with people playing poker, and that I should try to get on there!!!

The bottom line is that "outsiders" clearly have no idea what gives "poker pros" their advantage, and don't understand "bankroll management". I'm plenty happy to keep it that way.

[Lucky]

To 99% of people, poker is roulette/baccarat, i.e. gambling that will take your money.

For society in general, this is probably a +ev belief, then people will stay away from gambling,not ruin their lives and all that.

Also, I would wager that almost all twoplustwoers held this belief before getting heavily into poker. The bottom line is, you cant expect people to accept in a 15 minute conversation, what it took a while for you to discover. Just accept they think you're a degenerate and when she pulls out a cig, light it will a hundred dollar bill and laugh maniacally.

[Moozh]

Or maybe you shouldn't care so much what people who have no idea what they're talking about think of you.

[chicagoY]

No, that's incorrect. I could care less about what some troglydytes think but I am going to defend myself. I'm not a punching bag and it's important to put people like that in their place.

[chicagoY]

That would be sweet. I wish I could do that with C notes...maybe a dollar bill...well, that would be -EV...lol.

[chicagoY]

When you're right you're right and you're right. I'm just going to go along with it from now on. There's no point in even mentioning it. You know, I've actually had, in years past, women make fun of me for going to the gym 5 days a week. Explaining why exercise is enjoyable is a waste of time.

[gmack15]

Man I know the feeling of that one. I am 20 years old and I go to college at UT

I told my parents that I play poker online in the beginning of march and they were shocked. They claimed that "it was not safe" and "how do you know which site are legit?"

I heard stories from my mother about people "who lost everything gambling" blah blah BS stuff.

Me- Well what were they playing when they were gambling?
Mother- The were playing slots, Blackjack, roulette ect.
Me- Mother, the house has a huge advantage in these games, make them pointless to play. Over the long run, you will be a big loser playing them. The odds of probability show us this.
Mother- It does not matter, gambling is gambling
Me- Ok, explain to me how people like Phil Ivey, Dan Harrington, Doyle Brunson, and other pros have made so much money playing poker. Dan Harrington has made the final table in 2003 and 2004 (correct me if i am wrong). Both years that was out of 1000+ plus people. You can't tell me that it is luck mom.
Mother- Well they are just good at what they do...

I am thinking "WTF???" I know that, that is what I am trying to explain to you.

I decided to end it at that because I know that I can not change my mother's view about holdem. Then she brought this to me:
"Son, your father and I think that you have a gambling problem, and we are concerned for you. We want you to stop gambling"

I told my mother that play hold 'em was not 'gambling' for the reasons that you explain in your post. Long term winning, playing smart, reading/studying, using probability to aide myself ect.

My mother is very old school and once she has her mind set on something she won't change it. In a sense, my mother is ignorant in terms of holdem. She does not know much about it, has heard all the 'negative' about it and therefore made up her mind about it before learning anything about it. I could show my mother long terms stats from my winnings and I could even have her sit down next to me and watch me play and show her that "holdem is not gambling (imop)" but she would never believe it. She would just claim "that it was luck".

We all know that there is luck, but luck is short term. There will be times where the donkey hits 2 pair w/ 89o to your KK and you lose a big pot. Unlucky. Or when you have QQ and run into a guy who has KK. Unlucky. But we know in the long run, we will see our results.

The whole thing is this:

Don't let other peoples ignorance effect you.

People don't understand certain things, and instead of researching them, they label them in their minds as "bad" or "wrong" or "immoral".

To close, all I have to say is don't be one of the people I just mentioned.

[chicagoY]

I had the same conversation with my mother. I ended it by asking, "Play a lot of poker do you?"