A bunch of standard, basic hands from the blinds

ike · #1 05-12-2006, 07:20 AM

I set the pokertracker filter for steal attempted against your blind and called/reraised HU and folded before showdown. i'm not sure about a lot of these hands even though they're the sort of thing that come up all the time:

Hand 1:

Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

Villain is SenorFlush, a solid TAG, but this is 100% standard vs most opponents, right?

Hand 2:
Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Villain is playing more than half his hands, but only raising about 15% and is pretty passive postflop but randomly spews pretty often. I was kinda lost here because I didn't know what sort of range to put him on given his preflop cap.

Hand 3:

Party Poker 50/100 Hold'em (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Villain is Grane54, another solid TAG. I felt sick after this one, but how should I have played it? Should i just checkfold this flop?

Hand 4:

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Villain is relatively unknown, 20/10 over a small sample. This one felt ok, but I wasn't 100% sure.

Hand 5:

Party Poker 50/100 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Villain is drfausto, a very aggressive TAG. This felt like total [censored] spew when the hand was over. Usually I'd just raise the flop, but I think fausto is firing another on the turn almost 100% against my call on that raggy flop. Now when he 3 bets my turn raise I get worried he could be putting me on a free-showdown play and 3betting a draw, so rather than call down I cap planning to check behind. I obv can't call that river bet. In retrospect, the 10 was a pretty bad card, I should maybe have gone into calldown mode given the turn even though I still like my plan of waiting on the flop.

Ok, I'll stop here before this gets totally unreadable. Thanks a lot to anyone who gets through it.

-Ike

luckychewy · #2 05-12-2006, 08:02 AM

I don't play this high but I think I might have a few solid points, others chime in if I'm completely off.

Hand 1 I think is standard.

Hand 2 given his tendency to randomly spew I think I might call river to make a point. Also, some people get out of line blind vs. blind, and calling down is good for metagame since people may try to make very thin value bets on you.

Hand 3 looks okay, I don't mind your line at all. I think I c/r often though OTF since the board is so draw heavy there are a lot of turn cards we might get semi-bluffed on.

Hand 4 looks very standard from here.

Hand 5 I'm usually raising that flop as well, but you had your reasons. I think once he 3-bets turn your cap is probably not a good play by any means, but you had your reasons albeit they are probably only true a small portion of the time. I think if you think he thinks you are raising for free showdown you should let him fire again OTR, calling down UI and raising when you make two pair/trips.

I'm interested to hear what others have to say about these hands though, hope I could help.

DeathDonkey · #3 05-12-2006, 09:12 AM

Hand 1: I don't reraise preflop all that often with small Ax. I am pretty comfortable calling flop/turn/sometimes river bets on scaryish boards though. Not much can be done on the flop though.

Hand 2: I definitely show this one down given your read and your pair. I don't think you need to 3 bet preflop but I would more frequently with A8 than A3.

Hand 3: I tend to checkraise this flop, but I balance my flop checkraises with strong / weak / bluff hands maybe not perfectly but enough that I won't get picked on on the turn every time - I think this is a spot where the right play for you is completely dependent on what you would do with Q8, K8, K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on this same flop...

Hand 4: I play this the same but if you 3 bet preflop every single time with a hand like this I think its too much.

Hand 5: I'd raise the flop but you had a reason for doing what you did. I think the cap is pure spew though.

I hope this thread takes off as these are tough situations we find ourselves in a lot.

-DeathDonkey

wheelz · #4 05-12-2006, 11:01 AM

hand 1 i'd just call preflop.

hand 2 i fold the flop, i'm really iffy on that peel. once you call and hit the 8 though, i'm calling the river too.

hand 3 i might c/r the flop. i would never take your line, but i pretty much never take that line with any hands so it's just not something that would work for me personally.

hand 4 i just call preflop the majority of the time.

hand 5 i don't mind waiting till the turn but yeah once that card hits i might go into calldown mode. if i did raise and got 3-bet i would call down UI

DcifrThs · #5 05-12-2006, 01:24 PM

hand 1: sometimes i'll just call that instead of 3betting. i plan on going to SD a good amt in that spot.

hand 2: im seeing a showdown after i pair the 8. he'll bet down pairs under 8s and im calling that down after the turn. but the flop you might find a fold b/c you're drawing to unknown outs vs. a tight player who capped...but again, if he's prone to random spewing, im going to have to see it.

hand 3: id consider many alternative lines here but given the way you played it id 3 bet that turn. DO NOT CHECK FOLD THAT FLOP.

hand 4: you're getting 8:1 w/ likely 6 outs. call turn, check fold riv.

hand 5: yea not goot. he's agro but not crazy. raise the flop. i def def raise that flop and take it from there.

calling and showing down is fun. dont give those guys too much credit (although that last hand was pretty fugly [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

B-UNIT

shmahappens · #6 05-12-2006, 01:28 PM

Against a thinking tag, i like smoothcalling this A3 here.
As you played it, fold is in order.

Hand two I think you need to show down for image and to get a read on a guy who you will be playing lots of hands against (and hopefully making most of your money vs)

Hand 3 I think the check calldown (since no bump PF) is better, since your donk is gonna get raised by any piece (ie OESD, flush draw) and you have to fold when raised.

Hand 4 I don't see what SB is representing unless he spiked K8 or something random, unfortunatley you have to believe him as Q10o has no showdown value. I think you played it fine, it feels wrong to give it up, but there's no way you calldown with Q10high.

Hand 5 there's no reason to cap. HU in this game he's not folding a pair, so go to showdown with that extra bet. And that "free showdown play" does not work when he's in the SB and you're in the BB.

ALL1N · #7 05-12-2006, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hand 4: you're getting 8:1 w/ likely 6 outs. call turn, check fold riv.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. I would much rather calldown with Q high than take this line. 6 outs is hugely optimistic.

ike · #8 05-12-2006, 04:55 PM

Why is raising the flop definetly better than waiting for the turn in hand 5? He's 6 outs a majority of the time and is usually gonna bet again.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #9 05-12-2006, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is raising the flop definetly better than waiting for the turn in hand 5? He's 6 outs a majority of the time and is usually gonna bet again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well one issue is that you don't know when he's hit any of those outs.

Per Pokerstove, your equity on the flop against what I believe his range should be is about 58%. Your equity goes DOWN if any overcard comes to the four (obviously paint cards hurt you worse), if any heart comes ... and then you get into this ugly situation where you could face a 3-bet and at least have to peel a card and might have to call down.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #10 05-12-2006, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is raising the flop definetly better than waiting for the turn in hand 5? He's 6 outs a majority of the time and is usually gonna bet again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well one issue is that you don't know when he's hit any of those outs.

Per Pokerstove, your equity on the flop against what I believe his range should be is about 58%. Your equity goes DOWN if any overcard comes to the four (obviously paint cards hurt you worse), if any heart comes ... and then you get into this ugly situation where you could face a 3-bet and at least have to peel a card and might have to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to provide a little more detail on this...

Assuming that your opponent raises with the following range (this is about 45% of his holdings)

22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J6s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K6o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o

your equity on the flop is 59%. Given the particular card that came off (the T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), your equity dropped to 53%. Some cards are obviously worse than this; for example the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] drops your equity to 48%. Even the innocent looking 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] slightly reduces your equity to 57%. In fact, only 10 cards in the deck improve your equity: the two remaining 4's, the three remaining queens, the three remaining treys, and the two offsuit deuces.

The situation is different if you had Q9o and had paired the nine. Now, any queen, nine, and two improve your equity, as do any non-heart undercard to the nines.