River spot early in stars 320

stevepa · #1 05-16-2007, 09:24 PM

We've played maybe 20 hands at the table but I have no stats on him so he very well might've just got here. I won a tiny pot early but have done very little so far if by some chance he's been watching. Effective stacks on the river are 1800.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG (t2530)
UTG+1 (t2490)
MP1 (t2490)
MP2 (t2470)
MP3 (t2170)
CO (t3170)
Button (t2100)
Hero (t2500)
BB (t2600)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t20, 4 folds, Hero raises to t100, 1 fold, MP1 calls t80.

Flop: (t220) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t180, MP1 calls t180.

Turn: (t580) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t420, MP1 calls t420.

River: (t1420) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Steve

P.S. Oh and I almost posted this hand in stages but I think the rest is super standard. Also, people are doing way too much of that lately. Comments on other streets appreciated as well though.

0evg0 · #2 05-16-2007, 09:29 PM

seems like a clear c/c

ItalianFX · #3 05-16-2007, 09:36 PM

I could see him having a flushdraw here. i don't think a straight draw of this board makes a limp/call except 89s.

If we bet the river, he's only calling with a hand that beats us. If he missed his flush/straight draw, he's going to fold.

Just as 0evg0 said, I think this is a good spot for a check/call.

NHFunkii · #4 05-16-2007, 09:36 PM

funny, I think it's a clear bet (1k, fold to shove). I don't think he's got a draw with the coldcall on a double paired board, and if he does he's not betting that much (esp since he has an ace a lot of the time and will check behind w/ showdown value). So, ignoring draws for that reason, he basically has a 7 or a 5 and will call/raise the river if you bet, and bet if you check (in which case betting is the same as check/calling), or he has a pair between 22 and TT, and he might fold to your bet and might call it, but will check behind on the river. So, betting is strictly superior to check-calling (when you eliminate draws), so it's just a question of how often he has a 7/5 here vs how often he calls with a smaller pair, and I think he has pairs often enough (and calls with them often enough) to make this a bet rather than a checkfold.

Exitonly · #5 05-16-2007, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
funny, I think it's a clear bet (1k, fold to shove). I don't think he's got a draw with the coldcall on a double paired board, and if he does he's not betting that much (esp since he has an ace a lot of the time and will check behind w/ showdown value). So, ignoring draws for that reason, he basically has a 7 or a 5 and will call/raise the river if you bet, and bet if you check (in which case betting is the same as check/calling), or he has a pair between 22 and TT, and he might fold to your bet and might call it, but will check behind on the river. So, betting is strictly superior to check-calling (when you eliminate draws), so it's just a question of how often he has a 7/5 here vs how often he calls with a smaller pair, and I think he has pairs often enough (and calls with them often enough) to make this a bet rather than a checkfold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i almost made this exact post, but i felt dirty saying bet-fold on the river and shoving is kinda big ... so i skipped posting.

edit: also, by 'exact post' i mean, what he said, but crammed into 1 or 2 sentenecs.

NHFunkii · #6 05-16-2007, 09:41 PM

nothing dirty about bet-folding here... no one ever bluffs here. if they do, nh. Note to the reader: I'm not folding to you. don't try it, jackass.

0evg0 · #7 05-16-2007, 09:48 PM

i don't see why his range has changed at all from flop to river.

even an idiot realizes steve never has a 7 or a 5 here so their straight/flush/straight flush outs are still "clean" on turn (yeah, they're not but blah blah).

as for river, any that beats A2o is betting if we check. and so are those missed draws which i think he shows up with a lot more than everyone else.

while you're right that b/f is a good line because we're NEVER getting bluff-raised, that's really not a convincing enough argument.

ItalianFX · #8 05-16-2007, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
funny, I think it's a clear bet (1k, fold to shove). I don't think he's got a draw with the coldcall on a double paired board, and if he does he's not betting that much (esp since he has an ace a lot of the time and will check behind w/ showdown value). So, ignoring draws for that reason, he basically has a 7 or a 5 and will call/raise the river if you bet, and bet if you check (in which case betting is the same as check/calling), or he has a pair between 22 and TT, and he might fold to your bet and might call it, but will check behind on the river. So, betting is strictly superior to check-calling (when you eliminate draws), so it's just a question of how often he has a 7/5 here vs how often he calls with a smaller pair, and I think he has pairs often enough (and calls with them often enough) to make this a bet rather than a checkfold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i almost made this exact post, but i felt dirty saying bet-fold on the river and shoving is kinda big ... so i skipped posting.

edit: also, by 'exact post' i mean, what he said, but crammed into 1 or 2 sentenecs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's why I originally said check/call because bet/fold didn't sound good so I went into between.

NoahSD · #9 05-16-2007, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
funny, I think it's a clear bet (1k, fold to shove). I don't think he's got a draw with the coldcall on a double paired board, and if he does he's not betting that much (esp since he has an ace a lot of the time and will check behind w/ showdown value). So, ignoring draws for that reason, he basically has a 7 or a 5 and will call/raise the river if you bet, and bet if you check (in which case betting is the same as check/calling), or he has a pair between 22 and TT, and he might fold to your bet and might call it, but will check behind on the river. So, betting is strictly superior to check-calling (when you eliminate draws), so it's just a question of how often he has a 7/5 here vs how often he calls with a smaller pair, and I think he has pairs often enough (and calls with them often enough) to make this a bet rather than a checkfold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i almost made this exact post, but i felt dirty saying bet-fold on the river and shoving is kinda big ... so i skipped posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

NoahSD · #10 05-16-2007, 10:37 PM

I don't really think we get raised by hands we beat often enough for it to really matter. Am I wrong there?