On the final table bubble in a WSOP Event

[MychCumstien]

this is an EASY shove. Why make a small raise and encourage behind you? Do you really want to play 77 OOP on the short stack for the rest of hand? You've got a nice stack size. Shove now. More often than not everyone folds to you and you pick up the blinds.

[Exitonly]

[censored] EXPLAIN THOGUHTS PEOPLE. IF YOU THINK ITS GOING TO ENCOURAGE ACTION, THEN FROM WHAT HANDS? Lets see some calling ranges.

Here are sample ranges that would make sense to raise-call, even though a bunch of broadway cards were also added to his range.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.483% 58.75% 00.74% 585444000 7336914.00 { 66+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 40.517% 39.78% 00.74% 396443100 7336914.00 { 77 }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.945% 49.39% 00.56% 918378516 10383498.00 { 22+, A9s+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 50.055% 49.50% 00.56% 920416632 10383498.00 { 77 }

[GoldenBears]

For any number of many valid reasons, shove.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
For any number of many valid reasons, shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was this trying to just piss me off?

One line answers arent always bad. But when we've had 22 replies, we dont need you to be he 16th person to say "shove for reasons". [censored] TELL ME THE REASONS. Do you think all pairs are calling our shove? Do you think underpairs are goign to fold to a 3x? also, do you think it's often that we'll be flat called with our stack size? and if so, why is that such a disaster? better pairs are almost certainly not smooth calling us, so we should be able to play pretty well on flops

[shaundeeb]

I hate how 77 plays postflop so I shove. If they CC PF they prob have a hand with 2 overs and if they pair them they aren't folding so you get your stack in behind if they miss they fold and rightfully so. I hate a hand like 77 with close to a PSB left vs bad players cuz they make you stick your stack in there everytime hoping they missed their hole cards.

Picking up the 50k in the pot is huge now you can resteal way wider vs the stacks. Since you said people weren't doing that, that much when you do it the first 1-2 times you may get respect and they fold a strong hand. So then you are now upto 450-550k stack and now can play poker for the rest of the ft bubble.

[BUTNAHHHH]

shove this, all day every day

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] EXPLAIN THOGUHTS PEOPLE. IF YOU THINK ITS GOING TO ENCOURAGE ACTION, THEN FROM WHAT HANDS? Lets see some calling ranges.

Here are sample ranges that would make sense to raise-call, even though a bunch of broadway cards were also added to his range.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.483% 58.75% 00.74% 585444000 7336914.00 { 66+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 40.517% 39.78% 00.74% 396443100 7336914.00 { 77 }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.945% 49.39% 00.56% 918378516 10383498.00 { 22+, A9s+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 50.055% 49.50% 00.56% 920416632 10383498.00 { 77 }

[/ QUOTE ]



Sorry but this is extremely unconvincing to me. The 10% difference in equity is nice but really not that big a deal. Also you allow the pot to be called when you just raise. The money in the pot incraeses your stack by about 1/6th, I think its completely insane to make some standard raise to maybe gain 10% equity on the freaking bubble!! I mean you go from 30k to 35k by just stealing the blinds which is RIDICULOUSLY IMPORTANT yet people seriously want to encourage action here?

Honestly I just think it's just terrible to not go allin, sorry I keep repeating myself. A clear example of trying to overcomplicate things to maybe gain some small amount of EV, which I'm almost completely sure you are not going to get.


FWIW if Exitonly is exactly correct about those ranges, and no one will ever call us but only reraise, our chip EV between the two plays is worth about a third of a BB. We are really going to go this crazy on the bubble for the possibility that if everything breaks perfect, our chip EV goes up by about 1000 when stealing the blinds gets us from 30k to 35k? The fact that we instantly make more money if someone else busts means that this confrontation will be worth clearly LESS than 1/3rd of a BB, the only question is how much less. So MAYBE itll be worth 1/5th of a BB more than going allin if everything is almost exactly perfect. You simply don't do this crap on the bubble with a hand like 77.


The only way this play makes any sense is if they are raising pairs under 77 when we make a standard raise, but not doing so if we go allin (ok maybe if u can get some hand like A6s to go crazy too). Otherwise you've just encouraged action that you are clearly opposed to.

[Exitonly]

"The only way this play makes any sense is if they are raising pairs under 77 when we make a standard raise, but not doing so if we go allin "


Which was my point, and i was just saying that i think it's certainly possible. I'm not really arguing for raise-call, i just think there are some good points for doing so, and up until just now no one had done math about what the difference would be.

Also, why is them calling such a disaster? Wont they be folding the majority of flops if they call? (and if they're not then we'll have gotten it in good on the flop some % of the time?)

I dont see why the *BUBBLE* means anything really, we're ITM, i'd like to see the payjump from 7th to 6th, because its probably not THAT huge.

[renodoc]

I think that 7 handed, one from the FT, you can get too caught up in FPS here. The table is playing ABC. If you shove here, anyone with a stack that you threaten has a calling range of about two hands. If you want to "encourage action" wait until you have one of those two hands yourself.

[Exitonly]

So you think they're folding pairs > 7's to a shove? if this is teh case, then i'm definitely a fan of shoving, but i doubt that happens especially if he's been shoving frequently.