KQs in BB unopened pot

[Apanage]

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pf is very bad

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No it isn´t.Folding equity is the single most important factor to raise and we have close to none against this line-up.All the other reasons you gave in your OP for not raising is also good IMO.


Postflop I also believe that this is a good spot to slowplay top pair.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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pf is very bad

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No it isn´t.Folding equity is the single most important factor to raise and we have close to none against this line-up.All the other reasons you gave in your OP for not raising is also good IMO.


Postflop I also believe that this is a good spot to slowplay top pair.

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Whoa whoa, just so some innocent lurker doesnt get confused. Preflop is absolutely terrible. It was so bad that I didnt even wanna initially say anything cuz I knew it would be covered by someone else.

[sethypooh21]

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pf is very bad

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No it isn´t.Folding equity is the single most important factor to raise and we have close to none against this line-up.All the other reasons you gave in your OP for not raising is also good IMO.

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This is like, comically wrong. EQUITY is the single most important factor when deciding to raise or not. Fold equity. per se, has almost nothing to do with it, especially preflop in limited hold them. Without doing any stoving, I can pretty confidently state that KQs has a pretty massive equity edge over any reasonable approximation of the villains' limping/completing ranges.

Now there is something to be said for passing up an edge now for a bigger edge later, but seriously how likely is it that you will make an extra xBB by "tricking" villains, who are already of suspect talent (given PF) and therefore likely unobservant, post flop and that this extra amount will be enough to overcome the significant PF edge you passed up?

[NinaWilliams]

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No it isn´t.Folding equity is the single most important factor to raise and we have close to none against this line-up.

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This is how the old live nits think when they dont raise top set on the turn because "they'll just call me with a flush draw anyways"

[Apanage]

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This is like, comically wrong. EQUITY is the single most important factor when deciding to raise or not. Fold equity. per se, has almost nothing to do with it, especially preflop in limited hold them.

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Is that so? When you´re folding out hands by open raising they give up all their equity to you. The fraction of a bet equity you gain by getting called by a worse hand isn´t at all worth as much.
Open raising is profitable because you´re folding out hands and steal all their equity.Sometimes you´re folding out hands that even have better equity than you have.
When the flop comes and you bet your mediocre hand again the folding equity is worth much more than the equity from your actual hand value. Because most often you´re folding hands that would have equity enough to call if they knew what you had.

Therefore raising OOP when four players ARE in is not nearly as profitable as raising in position unless you are certain that you also can realize that equity postflop.
And when people don´t fold a single pair postflop then much of the gain of preflop raising is gone. Unless you have the discipline to check/fold a lot of flops as the preflop raiser and most people don´t have that.

I don´t say that it is wrong to raise preflop but it is not an all such a clearcut case that everyone says.

Without stoving I would guess that our preflop raise is worth around 1SB. And we basically must hit flop to realize that 1SB if we don´t think that we can fold out better hands (and In my experience we do not do that often).And we all know how often we are going to hit flop.
I really can´t see anything wrong by waiting to flop before springing into action.
Because hand values changes a lot between preflop and flop and that is a problem when you´re OOP with a non-showdownable hand and don´t have any folding equity.

People don´t estimate the difficulties of playing OOP correctly.

[sethypooh21]

Ignoring the multitudes of things STILL wrong with your post

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Without stoving I would guess that our preflop raise is worth around 1SB. And we basically must hit flop to realize that 1SB

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No. We 'realize' that one SB every time. We might need to hit the flop to collect, but if it's a +1 SB raise, that means raising is +1sb every time. The amount we actually win or lose from that point is just variance. In what possible scenario do you imagine making back that 1 SB PER HAND if we don't raise?

Edit: I'm not trying to be a dick here, but this is a pretty basic concept of which you are demonstrating a severe misunderstanding.

[Apanage]

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Ignoring the multitudes of things STILL wrong with your post

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Without stoving I would guess that our preflop raise is worth around 1SB. And we basically must hit flop to realize that 1SB

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No. We 'realize' that one SB every time. We might need to hit the flop to collect, but if it's a +1 SB raise, that means raising is +1sb every time. The amount we actually win or lose from that point is just variance. In what possible scenario do you imagine making back that 1 SB PER HAND if we don't raise?

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I can´t possibly go through all million post-flop possibilities. But in the OP SB donks with a probable inferior hand which he most likely would not have done otherwise.

If you don´t hit flop the following things are more likely going to happen to you than to any other player in the hand.

1.You are folding the best hand.
2.You´re folding before a turn and/or river card hit that would have helped you win the hand.

These things means that a large part of your preflop hot and cold equity is vanishing because you´re not going to showdown and therefore can´t realize it.
That 1 SB is just a theoretical value and it DOES NOT mean that it is worth 1SB every time, unless you´re the worst showdown monkey ever. Hot and cold equity only measures hand strengths between hands that are played to showdown.

I also think that it is much easier to make costly mistakes coming in on flop and/or turn UI with the initiative.
Playing fit or fold against these players seems more right to me.

[sethypooh21]

See, you are confusing terms. We describe it as worth 1 SB because of the times you don't win. When you do win, it is worth 3SB.

Now everything you say about playing OOP is, in theoretical terms correct. but it's just as correct if you check as if you raise. Now does raising make the hand harder to play? Perhaps, but does this difficulty cost you 1 SB per hand? Not a chance. It's not JUST your equity, you also have a hand that plays well post flop (and, unlike a hand like say 88, unless you flop a set, you'll have a pretty good idea where you are in the hand.)

[TheHip41]

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Ignoring the multitudes of things STILL wrong with your post

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Without stoving I would guess that our preflop raise is worth around 1SB. And we basically must hit flop to realize that 1SB

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No. We 'realize' that one SB every time. We might need to hit the flop to collect, but if it's a +1 SB raise, that means raising is +1sb every time. The amount we actually win or lose from that point is just variance. In what possible scenario do you imagine making back that 1 SB PER HAND if we don't raise?

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I can´t possibly go through all million post-flop possibilities. But in the OP SB donks with a probable inferior hand which he most likely would not have done otherwise.

If you don´t hit flop the following things are more likely going to happen to you than to any other player in the hand.

1.You are folding the best hand.
2.You´re folding before a turn and/or river card hit that would have helped you win the hand.

These things means that a large part of your preflop hot and cold equity is vanishing because you´re not going to showdown and therefore can´t realize it.
That 1 SB is just a theoretical value and it DOES NOT mean that it is worth 1SB every time, unless you´re the worst showdown monkey ever. Hot and cold equity only measures hand strengths between hands that are played to showdown.

I also think that it is much easier to make costly mistakes coming in on flop and/or turn UI with the initiative.
Playing fit or fold against these players seems more right to me.

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this is a lot of writing, seriously, you are wrong here, it's ok. PF is terrible.