step 1: get outta line. step 2: profit?

[surfdoc]

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On this board its pretty easy, we pick up the gutshot on the turn so we're never folding before river, and then we get there and we beat like every XY of spades.

I'd like to amend and now say I think check/fold is a bit better than check/raise pretty much because of what dangerfish said.

I hope Mike L. said check/fold, it makes decent sense and makes HOWMANY the spew look silly [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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We don't beat every one though. We are behind A6-A8s, maybe AT-Js if they would cc preflop. A5s will fold his chop.

One more barrel and all those hands go in the muck right?

[HOWMANY]

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Oh man he told you to c/r didn't he? I'm pretty sure that is the best play. It will go something like this in his head "sweet he must have A high" then after you c/r "wow I got pozzed" as he clicks the fold button completely demoralized by how you maximized value with your K.

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Apparently the spewy, insane mike has died and been reincarnated as you.

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I lol'd.

Mike said c-c? I guess FDs that should have 3bet or folded pre and called for whatever reason make more sense than anything else?

Surf

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c/c is almost as bad as betting here and betting is the worst option of them all

[surfdoc]

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c/c is almost as bad as betting here and betting is the worst option of them all

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Why?

[HOWMANY]

I feel really retarded arguing about a line for a hand that I would have folded preflop and then again on the flop, but betting never folds a better hand and check/calling is dumb because he will like never have a hand that we beat. If he has a flush draw then I think he played it really bad because I think the line we have taken is one that he should raise turn with flush draw.

My opinion might be skewed because I am sure that the villain has 66 exactly though.

[dangerfish]

Last thing I wanna say about this hand and how it relates to bluffing in sh lhe. First off this whole hand is tough because your repping such a narrow range ie the nuts.

I would be happy to achieve the following in regards to bluffing and value betting. Win more than your fair share of unclaimed pots and no hand vs no hand. Use check raises and such to extract extra value rather than bluff. Do not leave anything on the table with regards to value betting this includes razor thin value bets even at the cost of occasionally value betting opponent's hand. Do this in order to achieve first part. There is a very important relationship between the 2. Ok, thats it.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel really retarded arguing about a line for a hand that I would have folded preflop and then again on the flop, but betting never folds a better hand and check/calling is dumb because he will like never have a hand that we beat. If he has a flush draw then I think he played it really bad because I think the line we have taken is one that he should raise turn with flush draw.

My opinion might be skewed because I am sure that the villain has 66 exactly though.

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I just reread this and I still don't get it. Funny to me that you don't want to argue here but post a hand where the whole thing is about a misclick. Anyway, arguing is fun. That's what we do here.

I find it hard to believe you fold A5s from the hijack (UTG 5 handed). I have it on the borderline but if the game conditions are right I will jack it up routinely. How else are we gonna get to be LAGTAG instead of nits? As far as him having exactly 66, I think that is pretty crazy. I think this guy 3 bets any pairs he wants to play against me. Your read that he never folds a pair, and he had 66 one has to be wrong since he did indeed fold.

Now for the turn. Why would you want to raise a flushdraw on the turn if you were him. Getting 3 bet with less than 20% equity would be a pretty huge mistake.

[surfdoc]

So, I did bet this river and he folded so we don't really get to know what he had. Mike argued and for the most part convinced me that check/fold is the best. I think it is very close still though. His point is that the villian will never fold a pair and that when I basically pin down the bet/raise button the entire hand it is an absurd spot for him to bluff.

My argument is that this is the internet. People do retarded stuff all the time. I also think his hand range is pretty narrow at this point to QsTs, JsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s. Of course there are others including some pocket pairs and some random stuff including slowplayed monsters. If I check this river and he checks with a bigger ace I will have made an absolutley enormous pot sized mistake.

I also disagree to some degree that he never folds a pair. I think it is interesting how this forum constantly beats down the "bad TAG" who plays 24/15 or whatever and how they are exploitable for making folds. We see thread after thread filled with that type of nonsense. Then, when I try to exploit that exact weakness we get a bunch of responses saying he never folds a pair. Seems like we have found a little paradox. Don't any of you ever take a lot of heat and then get to the river and then decide to lay down your marginal holding? I do and I think you should to.

The final argument against check/folding is the meatgame consequence. I don't want people thinking that they can get a free showdown or steal pots from me on the river. Even if he calls me and makes a note that says "whackjob, bet/3bet flop and 3 barreled with air" I will get some of this bet back later on. If he folds and doesn't get to see my hand that is fine too.

[Hobbs.]

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Don't any of you ever take a lot of heat and then get to the river and then decide to lay down your marginal holding? I do and I think you should to.

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Usually not when I'm in position though. There's a big difference being OOP and c/f'ing the river since you've now given the other guy a shot and checking back the river and giving up.

[mike l.]

but how often would a guy with those stats have a pocket pair?

[mike l.]

"I also disagree to some degree that he never folds a pair."

i talked at length about this with howmany and you guys were both making the mistake of thinking this guy just because he's not terrible will think on level 2 and 3 like you do and fold 66 or 55 (the only pairs he could have i think) after calling the turn. in my experience it takes a very skilled player to make that sophisticated a play (call the turn, fold the river) with a pp. not likely, and nowhere likely enough given the size of the pot. overestimating metahand is also a matter of giving your opponents too much credit. this is 10-20 dont get crazy overthinking it.

it's not very close. he has some sort of nonsense flush draw hands like 97s, something he couldnt reraise but felt inclined to play because you raise a lot and it's 5 handed and he has the button. (keep your read of their thoughts simple). either he paired the river card, or even the turn or flop or he didnt. he will sometimes check that pair on the river and when he bets you are toast way more often than your A high is good. people dont tend to bluff the river when their opponent pounded the pot oop every chance they got. so youre not checking the river to induce a bluff, youre checking to fold because it looks like youre checking to call.

this hand is pretty simple. the flop play is interesting but should be the sort of play in the arsenal of any decent player. button's most likely hand is a draw so making him pay to draw is critical.

probably wont look back here but those are most of my thoughts.