semi-ot: live SnGs starting at my local B&M

[pineapple888]

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I saw the starting stacks. They aren't that different than the WSOP sats minus the first level. Those started with 800 and 25/25 blinds. Those were infinitely beatable and it wasn't entirely attributable to the first level so I'm guessing these are similarly beatable. The real question is are they going to run often enough to make it worth being at a poker room and not playing in a cash game?

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Really, I think this is hugely different, WSOP sats weren't push/fold until Level 3, and the higher buyins also got more starting chips.

But what do I know. You're the one with the brick. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Slim Pickens]

Other than a few sort of high-concept plays, which I don't even know for sure were all that profitable long-term, I've never done anything in a live SNG other than straight push/fold. There's no need. Why do anything else when people are folding so tight that you can make several +1.0% pushes per orbit and you can put anyone even playing a hand at all on {77+, AJ+, KQ}? People might even fold tight enough that posting a blind is not unprofitable given how often you take a walk. It's just an educated guess, but I feel anyone who says this structure is too fast to be profitable hasn't seen how spectacularly bad 99% of live players are at short-stack play.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than a few sort of high-concept plays, which I don't even know for sure were all that profitable long-term, I've never done anything in a live SNG other than straight push/fold. There's no need. Why do anything else when people are folding so tight that you can make several +1.0% pushes per orbit and you can put anyone even playing a hand at all on {77+, AJ+, KQ}? People might even fold tight enough that posting a blind is not unprofitable given how often you take a walk. It's just an educated guess, but I feel anyone who says this structure is too fast to be profitable hasn't seen how spectacularly bad 99% of live players are at short-stack play.

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Dude, nobody said it wasn't profitable. Just about any structure will be at least marginally profitable in live play. But how much variance do you really want for your margin?

My point remains that Level 3 with <10BB unimproved, vs. Level 1 with 10BB and Level 2 with 5BB unimproved, allows significantly more opportunity for skill, whether you are pushbotting or not.

[Slim Pickens]

Thing is, everyone having 5 BB stacks is going to create some hugely profitable push opportunities. Think about proper play three-handed play when 10% of the chips on the table go in the blinds. Good players are shoving almost every hand. Couple that people's stupidly-tight calling ranges and the fact that your $EV/hand of folding is fairly small since the blinds are hitting you more slowly and I see a lot of profit to be had. It does require you play 30 or so hands without ever missing a +EV push, but that's what we've been training for, right?

[Paul B.]

Structure sucks. Try to convince them to add some levels in between (50/100, 150/300, 300/600) and 20+ minute blind levels. Otherwise you'd probably be better off playing 1/2 NL or whatever.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, everyone having 5 BB stacks is going to create some hugely profitable push opportunities. Think about proper play three-handed play when 10% of the chips on the table go in the blinds. Good players are shoving almost every hand. Couple that people's stupidly-tight calling ranges and the fact that your $EV/hand of folding is fairly small since the blinds are hitting you more slowly and I see a lot of profit to be had. It does require you play 30 or so hands without ever missing a +EV push, but that's what we've been training for, right?

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Well, if EVERYONE at the table (8-9 others probably because of the fast structure) is SO dense that they aren't going to be calling wide with 5BB, or pushing wide themselves before the action gets to you, I guess there might be something to this. I didn't see it at the WSOP, but who knows. And you still have to beat the rake, of course.

And I think we should stop there, my friend. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ManChild]

holy [censored] - 10 bbs to start wtf,

[Slim Pickens]

Well, since nobody has ever won an argument with you, I'll leave this one alone after I present you an example.

blinds 50/100, 4-handed, 60/40 payout (2-spot payout seems more common in B&M)

The four remaining players all have t1000 for exactly 10 BB stacks. Hero is dealt T7o on the button. Both SB and BB call too tight with a range of {66+,ATs+,AJo+}. Hero's push is +0.6%. If the situation is exactly the same except for the blinds being 100/200, the push is +3.1%. It's 2.5% more profitable, or $50 better in a 10-max, $200 buy-in tournament. It's even sicker if you look at what hands you can push from the cutoff rather than the button.

[rkidwell]

Hi all,

My first post in this forum. I usually hang out in the micro-limit forum, but starting to get interested in some STTs. I've learned a lot so far just lurking, I hope to gain some experience and start contributing soon.

Anyways, the reason for this post - what exactly is a "toke pool"? There are no B&Ms where I live, my poker experience is limited to online and the occasional home game, so I've never ran into the term.

Thanks.

[DeathbySuckout]

The toke pool is the dealers tip.