Short stack problems FTOPS $1K

[Soulman]

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Soulman, my suspicion as to why you got the wrong results was that:

1. you got the antes wrong


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lol, crap...I did think 30% was a bit surprising myself. My SNGPT didn't have antes included of course, since Full Tilt doesn't use antes in SNGs...which I didn't consider.

Well at least you got confirmation that your instinctual push/call math is good [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bonified]

1 shove unless, for some reason, BB is fully aware that you will push with any 2. To hell with it, even if he is.

2+3 If I do find myself here I'd probably pass both of these. You have just enough to still (barely) make people pass after going through one more set of blinds. I tend to shove super-light in LP with this kind of stack though (see 1) which is why I don't find myself here all that often. If it matters though, 3 is a better (less bad) spot than 2.

4 Gut feel is probably call. Stack is now so low that getting it in behind someone else's raise might be your best bet, especially with antes chipping you down further with every hand. I don't much like the raiser being EP (would insta call an MP raiser) but by this point beggars can't be choosers.

Edit : by the way, in 4 call, do not put the last 80 in. DUCY ?

[BennyMac]

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Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

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Are you aware of any modeling that has been done that accounts for the fact that everyone else has folded around to the blinds in determining BB's hand range (i.e., if it's been folded around, he's 10% more likely to have a top 15% hand, something like that) and what if any effect that should have in a decision like this?

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I haven't seen any. Most assume the effect is small enough to ignore so if you were to show something like that then people would be interested.

[AGame18]

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1. usually fold, unless you think that the BB is not calling wide enough then shove but i still dont like it

shoving weak aces from early position is terrible imo, even with ur stack, you are so punished by peoples calling ranges, much rather shove Q 8 utg then A 4 in the 2 hole so hand 2 and 3 should be folds

the last one i think you have no choice but to gamble with K 10 cuz ur infiintely short and u have no fold equity anyways if you wait

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Agree with all of this. Shoving hand 1 might be +cEV against nitty opponents in the bb but I think this is a fold vs. unknowns especially in a 1k. For a long time I would shove any 2 sb vs. bb with like less than 12 bb's as the bb would fold very frequently. Seems now people have adapted to this imo and are calling much lighter from the bb because they expect to see any 2 from the sb. Hand 2 and 3 are both tempting and might look like shoves to a card dead short stack but are both folds, and hand 4 is a sigh then call.

[BarryLyndon]

1. Easy push, ATC because of your M, but most importantly, one opponent left and you are a huge threat to his stack, which is still somewhat reasonable. If he calls you light, well, so be it.

2. fold.

3. Push, because your stack is dead when BB hits you again, and you are too desperate to be choosy with an A.

4. I guess call, but i see your point.

Barry

[drzen]

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1 shove unless, for some reason, BB is fully aware that you will push with any 2. To hell with it, even if he is.

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OMG. Plz don't.

[ValarMorghulis]

I would shove all these, but I sometimes think I'm too aggressive in these situations.

I hate getting in situation 4 where I have to call off my stack when behind, so try to be use all the power of FE while I have the chance.

Situation 2 is the closest and I might pass depending on my image and table conditions (i.e. will I likely get a few +EV LP shoves in the next orbit). Someone said, they'd prefer Q8o to A4o. Has anyone done maths to back this up? Having an Ace surely counts for something in terms of less combos of AK,AQ,AJ,AA Plus you are ahead of some hands that might call loose. Plus you are no longer crushed by KK,QQ.

[Bonified]

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1 shove unless, for some reason, BB is fully aware that you will push with any 2. To hell with it, even if he is.

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OMG. Plz don't.

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You'll have to give me a bit more than that. Tell me what hand you would _really_ call with here, remember you're on the BB with 7000 and it's a 4000 shove. Technically if he "knows" you have any 2 he can call with 94s, 86o etc but who's really going to do it ?

In practice, even if he calls with 60% of his hands (which means 87o, J2s as a minimum) then yes it's marginally -EV, but I might take it on anyway.

[Bonified]

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Someone said, they'd prefer Q8o to A4o. Has anyone done maths to back this up? Having an Ace surely counts for something in terms of less combos of AK,AQ,AJ,AA Plus you are ahead of some hands that might call loose. Plus you are no longer crushed by KK,QQ.

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I can't find a calling range against which Q8o does better than A4o, and that's not even taking account of the Ace in your hand reducing the number of possible calling hands.