Convince me that that both sides aren't simply disgusting murderers

[Howard Beale]

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Egypt asked for peace with Israel and got it. Jordan asked for peace with Israel and got it. Voila!

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Please dont over-complicate things so much.

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If, when you say 'egypt asked for peace and got it' you are referring to the peace treaty that Jimmy Carter negotiated years back, Egypt offered a similiar treaty a few years earlier (in fact the terms were a little more favourable to Isreal) and was denied. It is not always so clear cut.

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I believe he is talking about the current relationship

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No, I was talking about that treaty. It may have not been so simple but it was accomplished.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Of course the Lebanese army is going to go after Israel, they are being invaded. Frankly, it is almost a coincidence that the Lebanaese Army and Hezbollah are on the same side.

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Iron,

How does do those statements make sense to you? How is the Lebanese army being invaded when the territory being invaded is that controlled by Hezbollah and which the Lebanese army has refused to take control of itself in accordance with UN resolutions? The fact is that South Lebanon is the province of Hezbollah and if the Lebanese army wishes to control it then I am sure the IDF would be glad to withdraw if they would move in and disarm Hezbollah. If the Lebanese army doesn't want to do that, then Lebanon has abdicated South Lebanon to Hezbollah and its not really theirs any more to protect. And the rest of Lebanon wouldn't need to fear attacks if they would cut off supplies to South Lebanon.

The bottom line is that Israel isn't going to let Lebanon straddle the fence and try to have it both ways.

[FlFishOn]

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But my point is, and I firmly believe, that the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and whomever else could have peace with Israel and get pretty much the decent settlement that impartial observers would expect if they would simply ask for it and mean it when they say they want peace.

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I believe this in every way. That belief allows me to place Israel on the moral high ground in every way.

After that, what's left to discuss? Israel's right to exist? Terrorist rubbish! Yet that idea is at the root of all future conflict, not Israel's 'war crimes'. Israel is incapable of commiting war crimes simply because if they are left in peace there will be no further war.

[Chris Alger]

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"And how many times is Israel supposed to negotiate, only to have the Arabs violate the deal?"

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The notion that Israel has always worked for a deal but has been rebuffed by Arab intransigence or violations is a myth. Israel has never recognized the same sovereign rights that the Palestinians conceded to Israel in 1988. No Isreali government has been willing to negotiate basic issues since since it unilaterally terminated all negotiations in 2001, despite numerous unilateral Palestinian cease-fires and persistent offers of long-term peace, including from Hamas.

[iron81]

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Of course the Lebanese army is going to go after Israel, they are being invaded. Frankly, it is almost a coincidence that the Lebanaese Army and Hezbollah are on the same side.

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Iron,

How does do those statements make sense to you?

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1. Unless you are going to make the debunked argument (I don't think you are) that Hezbollah runs all of Lebanon, the Beirut Airport and the Beirut-Damascus highway are not in Hezbollah territory.
2. The direct involvement of the Lebanese army in this conflict is limited. To be honest, I am not sure the degree to which the Lebanese army has engaged Israel. I was operating under the assumption that Copernicus made that the Lebanese army had engaged Israel and I didn't really check my facts there.
3. I didn't say the Lebanese army was being invaded, I said Lebanese territory was being invaded. Just because Southern Lebanon is Hezbollah territory doesn't mean A. Lebanon doesn't care about that territory B. Lebanon doesn't hope to one day kick Hezbollah out (I wouldn't like an armed militia controlling part of my country even if they didn't occasionally lob missiles at my neighbor) C. Lebanon doesn't particularly like Israel and wouldn't mind taking a shot at them.

[Copernicus]

1. Standard military strategy to cut off supply lines including highways and airports. Why would you expect any different? Even if not IN Hezbollah controlled areas they SUPPLY Hezbollah controlled areas.

2. I dont think Ive said that the Lebanese army has engaged the IDF, if so it was unintentional What I think I said is that the STATED that they would engage Israel IF Israel launched a full scale invasion.

3. I think the question to you was the "coincidence" portion of your statement.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Convince me that that both sides aren't simply disgusting murderers
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No.....do your own homework.
I will not kow-tow to your intellectual laziness.


Each side has done awful things and killed lots of innocent kids.
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Oh really? I know the Arabs kill innocents by sending suicide bombers to kill civilians. These incidents are as numerous as the fall leaves and the Arabs proudly take credit for these murders. So when have israelis deliberately targeted civilians? If your lucky you might find two examples. If so lets do the math. Arabs = 25,000 murder civilains. Israel = 2. Wow! Gee Whiz you are right. They are both equally evil!

Your comment stinks of moral equivalism and is both arrogant and ignorant. If the palestinians fire rockets from a 'civilian' house at Israelis, the Israelis are allowed to fire rockets back. And based on the rules-of-war, Israel is not at fault for any civilian deaths caused by their counter attack. The blame lies with the militants that chose to use human shields...


The reason is that both sides of this conflict are lead by disgusting, hate driven people who only want to kill Jews or disgusting people who only want to kill Arabs. All the political justifications of "they did this to us" are just rationalizations so they can keep murdering Jews/Arabs.
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God....this moral equivalism is tiresome.
Please provide supporting links to support your assertion that Israeli has a POLICY murders Arabs. The Arabs have a long standing policy of using murder. When comparing the Jews with Arabs it is simple. The Jews behave in a civilized manner and the Arabs do not. If for one think the Israelis should start fighting fire-with-fire and fight a total barbaric war against the Arabs. And after being victorious, then the Jews can once again treat the Arabs as if they were civilized.


Or longer, eventually you are killing innocent people based on stuff no alive today did, and the people of both countries are suffering because of those acts of a long time ago.
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You don't know what your talking about.
Your opinions STINK of arrogance. You might as well say, 'Can't people see that I'm so smart and they are so dumb'. You take no side because you think you are morally superior and you think you are smarter than both sides. I have a news flash for you. You are not morally superior and you are ignorant of the facts. In addition I suspect you a too intellectual lazy to actually research the history of thes conflict. I have more respect for people who take views that oppose mine, than so-called moderates that position themselves in the middle so than can practice their moral superiority over others..

[iron81]

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1. Standard military strategy to cut off supply lines including highways and airports. Why would you expect any different? Even if not IN Hezbollah controlled areas they SUPPLY Hezbollah controlled areas.

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1. That is from Israel's perspective. I'm sure the Lebanese civilians, much less the Lebanese army, doesn't give a [censored]. And that's the point of view I was using.

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2. I dont think Ive said that the Lebanese army has engaged the IDF, if so it was unintentional What I think I said is that the STATED that they would engage Israel IF Israel launched a full scale invasion. [ QUOTE ]
now that Beirut has not only shown that they cant control Nasrallah but will fight along side him

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3. I think the question to you was the "coincidence" portion of your statement.

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I was trying to address that. Basically, my point is that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." I don't think Lebanon particularly likes Hezbollah, its just that they are afraid of them and they really hate what Israel is doing.

[Copernicus]

'I was trying to address that. Basically, my point is that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." I don't think Lebanon particularly likes Hezbollah, its just that they are afraid of them and they really hate what Israel is doing. '

We agree on that, but that is not in any way "coincidence". They have made an expedient decision, which in the short term saves them reprisal from within and from their Arabe neighbors.

It is unfortunate that a moderate Arab people became infested with Hezbollah. It could have been one more building block toward peace. instead of an invitation for their country to be set back 20 years.

[Mroberts3]

"Israeli non-combatants killed by opposite side: 764
Palestinian non-combatants killed by opposite side: 1099"

To the OP: Yes both sides have commited horrible acts and none of them should be excused. That said, I want everyone to simply look at the intent of the parties involved. (lets pretend these numbers are accurate even though they dont need to be to prove my point.) All 700 some Israeli non combatants casualties were innocent civilians INTENTIONALLY TARGETED simply out of hate. Somevof the 1000 some Palestinians were killed maliciously or by indifference but some, if not the majority, were killed by accident as can be expected when an opponent intentionally hides among civilians, or in any war for that matter. People argue in circles all day about how complex this conflict is and I think its quite simple. Its just like following the money trail, only in this situation its following the trail of mindless hate. The direction the trail leads is pretty clear.