Pushing ATC UTG <4 BB's

[Niggel]

If I turn it off I get a range of about 25% if I do turn it on I get around 60%. So with the normal calculation it is advising to just push 25% of all hands in this spot!

[CheeseMoney]

I fold this, as I think you will get called enough and running this through sngwiz and sngpt seems to agree with me. Settings are complicated in sngwiz, cause you have to account for other players shoving ranges if you fold, + their calling ranges vs each other, overcalls, etc, but on a reasonable range I have this push being -1.65%. Thats pretty horrible for a shove. I get similar results in SNGPT under reasonable ranges. Obv we're just trying to decide if this is a better spot with whatever perceived fold equity that we have than calling a shove or facing a community pot in the bb this hand, or in the event that we fold, in the sb the next hand (or shoving any 2 when we're in the SB if folded to), or waiting 2 more hands to get it all in before getting ganged up on at the bubble. I can't speak for high buyin regs, but at &lt; 27$ I've seen enough donk play on the bubble to think that it can be advantageous to let your donk opponents on the bubble call a shove with AQo vs TT and off each other-- I don't know how to calculate "donk equity" in sngwiz as of yet.

[blackize]

It's not ATC for some of the reasons cheese stated. The likelihood of the other tangling should cause you to be slightly tighter. I would guess it's still 80-85% though.

[vers]

maybe in the spot I ran earlier stacks were slightly different to make ATC a +ev shove... I assigned pretty generous ranges too.

[_Towelie_]

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The likelihood of the other tangling should cause you to be slightly tighter. I would guess it's still 80-85% though.

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I play the same way. I'm shoving very wide but still folding the trashiest of trash.

Edit: Not saying I'm right btw. I'm willing to be convinced that not shoving ATC here is a leak.

[MrTynKyn]

Niggel : tell me what SNWiz says to you ( under your setup) , cause i have fold in every case , and i cant get the numbers u got .

[blackize]

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maybe in the spot I ran earlier stacks were slightly different to make ATC a +ev shove... I assigned pretty generous ranges too.

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SNGPT spits out an ATC shove with everyone on 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+ but if you go much looser you can only shove like 28%.

Given the loss of FE if we fold here, we can take some -EV pushes which bumps that number up some. I actually think it might be a bit tighter than I thought earlier in this thread, but still 65%ish.

[drzen]

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maybe in the spot I ran earlier stacks were slightly different to make ATC a +ev shove... I assigned pretty generous ranges too.

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SNGPT spits out an ATC shove with everyone on 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+

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That range seems too tight for BB to me. He's not getting far short of 2 to 1, and even if donks don't think in terms of pot odds, they recognise that they can call lighter when they gain relatively more.

[blackize]

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That range seems too tight for BB to me. He's not getting far short of 2 to 1, and even if donks don't think in terms of pot odds, they recognise that they can call lighter when they gain relatively more.

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Did you stop reading that sentence at the end of the quote? I acknowledged that our pushing range decreases drastically with only a small increase in the calling ranges. But we still are screwed after the next hand and thus must take some -EV pushes.

[Sykes]

23 is awful to push with this scenario (and i'm pushing alot).

bb is going to call you a ton of times getting close to 2 to 1 (and with a decent amount of chips if you lose). I think you're getting called around 40% of time by BB alone.