I Know I Exist but I'm not so Sure about You

[m_the0ry]

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How can you differentiate between the pain felt by a dream character and a real person?

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I don't think the dream character feels pain. Therefore I don't have to differentiate it from what I feel.

The dream character is like a projected image on a movie screen. It looks like a person. It appears to act like a person. But I don't think the image on the movie screen is experiencing anything, including pain.

PairTheBoard

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So you're basically saying every dream you've ever had was a lucid dream. When you dream you're _always_ aware that you are dreaming?

[Philo]

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How can you differentiate between the pain felt by a dream character and a real person?

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I don't think the dream character feels pain. Therefore I don't have to differentiate it from what I feel.

The dream character is like a projected image on a movie screen. It looks like a person. It appears to act like a person. But I don't think the image on the movie screen is experiencing anything, including pain.

PairTheBoard

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So you're basically saying every dream you've ever had was a lucid dream. When you dream you're _always_ aware that you are dreaming?

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You don't have to be aware that you're dreaming to know that the characters in your dreams don't feel pain. Even if while you're dreaming you think they do, they don't.

[PairTheBoard]

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I use the word certainty to describe the feeling you have when you are sure something is true. Which is well defined and is actually what most people mean when they use the word, despite what they might claim.
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I would consider conviction to be a synonym of certainty


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If it will avoid confustion for those who make that possibly incorrect claim, and the words are indeed synonymous then I see no harm in using the less confusing word.

However I'm not sure the words are strictly synonymous. In general use, words have connotations and I don't think they have the same connotations, thus the confusion. If they were perfectly synonymous then the folowing sentences should
have the same connotations.

1. I can say with conviction that Jesus was an historical figure.

2. I can say with certainty that Jesus was an historical figure.

I think there are different connotations there. The Second connotes a certain credibility the author is putting behind the accuracy of his statement. The First connotes more of a strong belief the author has which may or may not be based on objective evidence.

It may be that while in rigorous philosophy the connotations of words can be stripped by definition, in general discussion I think you have to take them into consideration. If for no other reason than to avoid side arguments over the connotations which aren't central to the issues.

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

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One of my favourite Taoist thoughts:

I dreamed I was a butterfly
buffeted about my meadow
with tired wings
and memories of leaf-eating
before wrapping myself in silk to sleep.

I awoke as Chang-Tzu
under silk sheets
and ready for breakfast
on my windvdriven mountain.
but wait.

Am I Chang-Tzu
dreaming I am a butterfly
or
am I a butterfly dreaming
I am Chang-Tzu?

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I like the one used in the old Donovan song:

First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is

I thought I had reached perfect enlightenment after hearing that. Then I heard,

Those who know do not speak
Those who speak do not know

So I have either progressed beyond a state of perfect enlightenment or remain short of it because I still can't seem to stop talking.

PairTheBoard

[vhawk01]

Definitely perfect+1 enlightenment.

[PairTheBoard]

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How can you differentiate between the pain felt by a dream character and a real person?

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I don't think the dream character feels pain. Therefore I don't have to differentiate it from what I feel.

The dream character is like a projected image on a movie screen. It looks like a person. It appears to act like a person. But I don't think the image on the movie screen is experiencing anything, including pain.

PairTheBoard

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So you're basically saying every dream you've ever had was a lucid dream. When you dream you're _always_ aware that you are dreaming?

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I don't see how that implies all my dreams are lucid. I remember some of my dreams so I can talk about them based on that memory. Some of my dreams are lucid but I don't see how that effects this point. Sometimes in my lucid dreams I can direct some of the action and I realize that nothing I do really matters. So if you think you need lucid dreams for this example they are available. That's all I'm using them for here. An example for purposes of analogy.

PairTheBoard

[John21]

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I have postulated, in my imagination, the existence of at least two different color perceptions: the one I perceive and one which is "switched." But no experiment at all could ever establish the existence of two separate perceptions such as these. I have postulated into existence something which is entirely unverifiable and completely unnecessary. So it seems I ought to apply Ockham's Razor here and conclude that there really is only one perception. Red and blue are red and blue. Period.

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Color is an idea in our mind. What we perceive is different hues that we then correspond with the idea of red in our mind. It's the same with a pencil: we don't actually perceive a pencil, we perceive an object that we compare with ideas in our mind. And if one of those ideas is a pencil - that's what we call it.

It's true there's only one perception, but the process doesn't stop with perception nor is it exclusive to it. If we had no "idea" in our minds of color, the best we could do is say one object "appears" different from another. It's only when we want to categorize, define, or divide the item(s) that we start building up a correspondence with an idea. We might agree to call the difference color, and then assign the word red to one and blue to another. But those are just ideas we made up - they exist only in our minds.

[PairTheBoard]

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Definitely perfect+1 enlightenment.

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He who Knows Laughs

PairTheBoard