More revelations abt atrocities in Iraq

[QuadsOverQuads]

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Too bad that courtesy isnt afforded to American servicemembers.

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Actually, if you watch ANY news channel, this courtesy IS being extended to them -- to the extreme.

To the point -- literally -- of refusing to even acknowledge that any crime *actually* took place. It may have "allegedly" taken place, but apparantly a crime scene filled with dead bodies covered in blood and wrapped in carpets is not sufficient to establish that something more than an "allegation" happened.

Furthermore, there is a big difference between saying that "a specific person allegedly committed this specific crime" vs. saying that "the act in question is only alleged to have occured at all". The presumption of innocence requires only the former. Politics and defense strategies are what gets you into the zone of the latter.

Toward that end, notice that almost every news organization in the country is taking the latter road, while Republican activists like Riddick suddenly rediscover The Gospel of Presumed Innocence (as rewritten by the Republican National Committee).

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And for the record, if it turns out they did murder these people, I hope they are punished to the full extent of the law.

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On that we can certainly agree.

The desire to deny the atrocity in order to preemptively acquit the soldiers involved, however, is a real problem for me, and that's clearly where Riddick is going here.


q/q

[RedBean]

I find it a bit disturbing that some of you guys seem almost excited with this news and the prospect of being able to pound on the Republicans with it for political reasons.

Please tell me that isn't the case, and your mainly concerned about these events as any person should be for what they are.....and not just because you are at odds with the current administration and enjoy the prospect of more ammunition and blame to throw at their political party.

These atrocities, if proven as stated, are absolutely horrific and inexcusable, and those guilty should be punished beyond all imagination, without any hesitation or doubt.

At the same time, however, the atrocities shouldn't be exploited for political purposes.

[ACPlayer]

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Actually most news reports I see usually use the term alleged to decribe people being charged with crimes, even if it seems obvious that they did in fact commit those crimes. Too bad that courtesy isnt afforded to American servicemembers. And for the record, if it turns out they did murder these people, I hope they are punished to the full extent of the law.

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Unfortunately the track record of the military investigating its own is shoddy, IMO. Partly due to the viewpoint that "war is dirty business", "collateral damage will happen". Usually a good coat of whitewash - "99.9 percent of servicemen are fine people", "there are some bad apples out there", "our targetting and ordnance is very accurate", "we take great pains to avoid collateral damage".

If the military would allow the investigations to be done by civilians, that would make things better.

[ACPlayer]

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At the same time, however, the atrocities shouldn't be exploited for political purposes.


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Why?

Unless there is a hue and cry, the matter is never going to see the light of an investigation.

[RedBean]

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Unless there is a hue and cry, the matter is never going to see the light of an investigation.

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From the tone of this thread, sadly enough, it doesn't seem like the cry for an investigation is as much to bring justice for the victims of this crime, as much as it is to bring into a negative light an opposing political party.

A part of me is afraid that some posters here could care less about the innocent children that died in this event, but instead only care that *something* happened, *anything* that they can pin on the opposing political party and allows them to score another "point" in the continual gamesmanship of political one-uppance.

Repubs can defend, and Dems can attack, and both are equally in the wrong for doing it.

Intead, everyone of any affiliation and nationality should agree it isn't a matter of political viewpoint, but instead a criminal one, and should be investigated and if found guilty, the perpetrators hung by their nuts on public display in downtown Baghdad.

[vulturesrow]

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Actually most news reports I see usually use the term alleged to decribe people being charged with crimes, even if it seems obvious that they did in fact commit those crimes. Too bad that courtesy isnt afforded to American servicemembers. And for the record, if it turns out they did murder these people, I hope they are punished to the full extent of the law.

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Unfortunately the track record of the military investigating its own is shoddy, IMO. Partly due to the viewpoint that "war is dirty business", "collateral damage will happen". Usually a good coat of whitewash - "99.9 percent of servicemen are fine people", "there are some bad apples out there", "our targetting and ordnance is very accurate", "we take great pains to avoid collateral damage".

If the military would allow the investigations to be done by civilians, that would make things better.

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On what evidence do you base this opinion on?

[Copernicus]

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Actually most news reports I see usually use the term alleged to decribe people being charged with crimes, even if it seems obvious that they did in fact commit those crimes. Too bad that courtesy isnt afforded to American servicemembers. And for the record, if it turns out they did murder these people, I hope they are punished to the full extent of the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately the track record of the military investigating its own is shoddy, IMO. Partly due to the viewpoint that "war is dirty business", "collateral damage will happen". Usually a good coat of whitewash - "99.9 percent of servicemen are fine people", "there are some bad apples out there", "our targetting and ordnance is very accurate", "we take great pains to avoid collateral damage".

If the military would allow the investigations to be done by civilians, that would make things better.

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On what evidence do you base this opinion on?

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He doesnt need evidence. He said "IMO" which relieves a poster of any obligation to actually support what he claims.

[canis582]

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I find it a bit disturbing that some of you guys seem almost excited with this news and the prospect of being able to pound on the Republicans with it for political reasons.

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Im not excited, Im embarrassed and mad that the Army chose to cover this up, not from the press, but rather from the DoD's justice system. This is termendous propaganda for anti-Bush (not anti-US) political forces all over the world.

I think it happened because I can imagine going crazy over there and doing it too. These barbaric incidents happened during a war with similar guerilla, sneak attack style warfare.

Why we didn't go in there and try to blow away the Saddamite leadership, quickly secure the country, while maintaining the Iraqi army and most of its leadership, to install a pro-american military junta, I'll never know.

[Riddick]

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I think a good idea here would be to presume the accused are guilty, and then go from there.


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The desire to deny the atrocity in order to preemptively acquit the soldiers involved, however, is a real problem for me, and that's clearly where Riddick is going here.


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Oh, clearly.

[Riddick]

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Im not excited, Im embarrassed and mad that the Army chose to cover this up

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Whoa, step aside everyone, here is someone who knows his facts!