[General] When should you be using this line?

[Harv72b]

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something like 2nd or 3rd set vs a decent villain who raised preflop & board is A or K rainbow unpaired.

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This is a perfect example of a spot where like half the forum does this even though it makes no sense. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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I think I hear what you're saying, but the board itself also makes a difference...especially if your opponent had a good (but worse) hand and a draw, it's very possible that he'll check through when the river doesn't improve him, but call your lead bet. For example, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on an A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board. And yes, I have seen otherwise decent opponents go crazy on the turn holding that hand.

Admittedly, I'm much more apt to bet/call with bottom set than I am with 2nd or 3rd set, especially when that 2nd or 3rd set is also the 2nd or 3rd nuts. Sometimes you just have to accept that you're destined to lose a lot of chips if he's got you beat, and that you're still going to come out ahead in the long run by making that river 3bet.

One other (small) factor that might make me bet/call the river when I have reason to believe my opponent has a higher set, vs. check/call, is that I like to establish myself as a highly aggressive player who's not afraid to push my edges. I want to intimidate my opponents, or at least the good ones, and in so doing get them to allow me to play my hands close to perfectly from an FTOPS standpoint. Although that & anything relating to "metagame" has little if any merits in the lower micro-stakes.

[Xhad]

Well this has pretty much run its course. Shill pretty much summed up what I was getting at:

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We have said a billion times how bad this approach is and it is easy to see why. You need to create crazy scenarios for it to be correct.

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In other words, this line is bad unless your opponent is doing something dumb (IMO that includes Harv's example of capping the turn with TPTK + flush draw planning to check behind/call a river brick UI).

My point in this thread is that HU OOP under the following conditions:

-Your opponent can be reliably expected to bet if you check
-You are an underdog when raised
-You will call said raise

There is no reason to bet whatsoever. It's a spew even if you're a favorite. Look at what happens in various scenarios:

Check: 1 bet goes in nearly 100% of the time
Bet, get called: Same as checking
Bet, get raised: You put in an extra bet as an underdog

Clearly since the only significant difference is letting him raise his strongest hands, betting is -EV.

Of course the OP hand was crafted to make sure these assumptions will mostly hold. Make the river a scare card and sometimes you should bet to prevent a checkthrough (especially if hero is bet/folding which is a completely different situation). Tone down the action some and maybe he was making a free showdown play. Make it a bet/3bet and maybe you're making more money than a c/r would have. Etc.

[00Snitch]

Hrmmm, nice thread Xhad.

I can't think of when this last happened to me, but it's good to think about.