NL100: JJ Did I play This Right?

[Das Budrick]

ranka,

yes

[Brocktoon]

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Most 12/9s aren't retarded.

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Saying that a player would be hard pressed to laydown TPTK w/ AK or an overpair in a HU pot on the flop after it was 3 bet preflop and the player has put in a c-bet that is 25% of the remaining effective stacks has nothing to with me calling that player retarded.

That would be a tough spot for anyone. I still think that the vast majority of 100NLers, even the thinking 12/9 ones, make the crying call there as a result of the pot being too big and their hand too strong in an objective (1st level) sense.

If we have some kind of laser sharp read (very tough to get online even with a HUD) and we're very confident that he'll lay down AA and worse then I think there is value in a shove. Against most players that I know I believe a shove is -EV and folding is your best play, even though it sucks.

Interesting hand.

[CalledDownLight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most 12/9s aren't retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying that a player would be hard pressed to laydown TPTK w/ AK or an overpair in a HU pot on the flop after it was 3 bet preflop and the player has put in a c-bet that is 25% of the remaining effective stacks has nothing to with me calling that player retarded.

That would be a tough spot for anyone. I still think that the vast majority of 100NLers, even the thinking 12/9 ones, make the crying call there as a result of the pot being too big and their hand too strong in an objective (1st level) sense.

If we have some kind of laser sharp read (very tough to get online even with a HUD) and we're very confident that he'll lay down AA and worse then I think there is value in a shove. Against most players that I know I believe a shove is -EV and folding is your best play, even though it sucks.

Interesting hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say it again. If you fold this flop then you need to fold preflop so why don't we just advocate that.

[CLB]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again. If you fold this flop then you need to fold preflop so why don't we just advocate that.

[/ QUOTE ]

CDL and OP are both right.

OP is correct in that I think most 12/9s are going to have a tough time finding a fold with anything he 3bet except for maybe AQ, and you really don't see too many 100NL players 3bet w/ AQ.

CDL is correct in that villain denied you the correct odds to play your hand for set value, so if that was your intent then you should have just folded. If you call this preflop then you've got to be prepared to make a play for the pot unimproved from time to time. This flop is probably as good a spot as you're going to find for something like that.

I'm a candyass (or maybe I'm just better than most 100NL players [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) but I'd fold AK to a shove here, and on a good day maybe AA as well.

The more I think about this, shove seems like the way to go. I don't have poker stove handy, but if his range is AK, AA, KK, QQ (not an unreasonable range in the 100NL game) then you're actually in decent shape against his range (someone with PS want to confirm this?) and you've got to a have a little bit of fold equity, right?

[Brocktoon]

For the record, I said that a preflop fold would be fine. In fact, it was the first thing I wrote in the first response of this thread.

That said, I'm still going to give my opinion on how to play the flop as played, where I think a fold is the best play with shoving in 2nd place.

[faintinggoat]

When you call - your already saying to your self i am only calling for set value and will he/she stack off if you hit.

1:7 for set but reality shows closer to 1:12 to 1:15 for set value profitability.

Lets play this with a different flop.

8s 4s 4c? What do you do? You call BB bets $20?

AKJ What do you do?

QJ10 What do you do?

The profitable move is to fold preflop since you have mentally turn JJ into set value.