I hate these spots so much

[ThePershore]

Honestly I think the whole hand is really bad.

Pre-flop - you described villian as TAG, A2o doesn't play very well post flop. If he's opening his SB a lot push, otherwise fold.

Flop - again push or fold, you hate pretty much every turn card so if he 2 barrels you have to fold unimproved (which is a lot of the time) and to be honest I don't think you're not deep enough to float. If you think he c-bets a high % then push.

Turn - fold.

[Dave D]

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Average stack doesn't matter. I think this is probably one of the biggest mistakes new players make. Who cares what everyone has, it's what you have compared to the blinds that matters.


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I don't see how you can say that average stack doesn't matter. If everyone else is sitting on 10-20k you should be far less inclined to clash with the only other 100k+ stack than if stacks are fairly even.

emb

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If something is +EV, then it's +ev, it doesn't matter against who. I like playing against big stacks because 1. they tend to be spewy/overaggressive and 2. they give you the best implied odds. Try to stack them with a set.

If the only 100k stack at the table plays back at you PF when you have JJ+, I'm gonna try to get my money in just like anyone else.

Maybe if you specify what the table average stack is, that might kinda sorta matter, but DEF not the tourney average stack.

edit: What I'm basically trying to say is yes, don't steal wildly from big stacks sure. But that has little to do with the average stack at the table. Also, average is a bad number to look at, if anything you should be looking at median stack. Average is always gonna be skewed by the big and small stacks.

Again, unless this is an unusualy deep stacked tournament, average doesn't matter.

[Proofrock]

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1. they tend to be spewy/overaggressive and 2. they give you the best implied odds.

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Both good reasons NOT to take a passive, call off all your chips approach w/A2o here.

[BarryLyndon]

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Average stack doesn't matter. I think this is probably one of the biggest mistakes new players make. Who cares what everyone has, it's what you have compared to the blinds that matters.


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I don't see how you can say that average stack doesn't matter. If everyone else is sitting on 10-20k you should be far less inclined to clash with the only other 100k+ stack than if stacks are fairly even.

emb

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If something is +EV, then it's +ev, it doesn't matter against who. I like playing against big stacks because 1. they tend to be spewy/overaggressive and 2. they give you the best implied odds. Try to stack them with a set.

If the only 100k stack at the table plays back at you PF when you have JJ+, I'm gonna try to get my money in just like anyone else.

Maybe if you specify what the table average stack is, that might kinda sorta matter, but DEF not the tourney average stack.

edit: What I'm basically trying to say is yes, don't steal wildly from big stacks sure. But that has little to do with the average stack at the table. Also, average is a bad number to look at, if anything you should be looking at median stack. Average is always gonna be skewed by the big and small stacks.

Again, unless this is an unusualy deep stacked tournament, average doesn't matter.

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You're right, average stack is kinduv a bad indicator that A LOT OF players get too close to.

But, I'm lost. So, are you still trying to justify your play here, Dave? A2o - you're calling 20% of your stack to see a flop. If you miss, you're second guessing yourself the entire hand. Are you trying to hit trip 2s here? Do you think you're implied odds can ever justify that? If an A comes out, you're probably OK, but this is either push or fold, and I'm heavily leaning toward fold because you can probably find a a better resteal opportunity than this a few hands down the road.

Barry



Barry

[Proofrock]

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... with a hand like 99+, AQ/AK I would push PF. This hand is more about the times we don't have those hands though.

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These hands do well both against Villain's opening AND calling range, so these are no-brainer shoves. A2o is in a different class: it's about 27% vs. anything that's currenlty ahead (including AK and TT). It's basically a math question here, but you need to evaluate what % of the time he folds to a shove preflop to find out if it's worth it. If it isn't worth it to shove, then fold because it definitely isn't a good spot to call.

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My problem is that in my mind, a lot of these situations end up as:

He raises PF. He c-bets. Then he shuts down on the turn, because he was trying to steal the whole time, and missed, at which point virutally any bet is going to take down the pot, regardless of what I have.

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It doesn't matter -- your hands are tied by your stack size. I mean, you're calling preflop expecting to call another bet on the flop -- at that point half of your stack is in the pot -- it sucks when he bets the turn because you're getting 2 to 1 but are often way behind, and even if he checks you're committing the rest of his stack to bluff him off his hand. If you were 100BB deep or something it could be okay to take this line, but your stack size doesn't allow it.

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I'm basically hoping for that to happen here, that and I figure I have 5 outs. villian's bet sizes look so much like that's what's gonna happen here (he's basically overbetting twice). He just *looks* like he's trying to buy the pot. However, I feel like I'm falling into a trap thinking that way.

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I personally think that you are. FWIW, when people overbet in blind situations, especially TAGs vs. other big stacks deep in a tournament, it often seems to me to be a hand that they think is best and don't want to get drawn out on -- he could have over cards I guess, but I think it's sort of unlikely here.

[Dave D]

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Average stack doesn't matter. I think this is probably one of the biggest mistakes new players make. Who cares what everyone has, it's what you have compared to the blinds that matters.


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I don't see how you can say that average stack doesn't matter. If everyone else is sitting on 10-20k you should be far less inclined to clash with the only other 100k+ stack than if stacks are fairly even.

emb

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If something is +EV, then it's +ev, it doesn't matter against who. I like playing against big stacks because 1. they tend to be spewy/overaggressive and 2. they give you the best implied odds. Try to stack them with a set.

If the only 100k stack at the table plays back at you PF when you have JJ+, I'm gonna try to get my money in just like anyone else.

Maybe if you specify what the table average stack is, that might kinda sorta matter, but DEF not the tourney average stack.

edit: What I'm basically trying to say is yes, don't steal wildly from big stacks sure. But that has little to do with the average stack at the table. Also, average is a bad number to look at, if anything you should be looking at median stack. Average is always gonna be skewed by the big and small stacks.

Again, unless this is an unusualy deep stacked tournament, average doesn't matter.

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You're right, average stack is kinduv a bad indicator that A LOT OF players get too close to.

But, I'm lost. So, are you still trying to justify your play here, Dave? A2o - you're calling 20% of your stack to see a flop. If you miss, you're second guessing yourself the entire hand. Are you trying to hit trip 2s here? Do you think you're implied odds can ever justify that? If an A comes out, you're probably OK, but this is either push or fold, and I'm heavily leaning toward fold because you can probably find a a better resteal opportunity than this a few hands down the road.

Barry



Barry

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No I'm not, this was a seperate tangent that I just felt the need to correct him on. I see people posting the avg stack all the time...as if it matters, or asking for it.

I don't like my play here, as I try to say in the OP. I'm asking for alternative lines going as far back as PF. I think I agree with proof here that I should just fold PF.

Given description of villian, what hands are people pushing back with, or calling with? I guess a lot of the problem here is I see so many "resteal with ATC" situations posted that I have a hard time figuring out if this is one of them....and I even have an Ace here.

Proof-I think you are correct about good players overbetting good hands in this situation not wanting to get sucked out. I didn't think of that at the time, but it reminds me that it is true.

Oh yeah, fwiw I got the highest avg place in both tourneys last night for ~$750 (55 and 17th in this one).

[emb]

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If something is +EV, then it's +ev, it doesn't matter against who.


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Yes, but even a play that is always +cEV can be either +$EV or -$EV depending on stack distributions.

That said, I take your point that average chip stack isn't a great indicator of chip distribution. I was really making the point that a definitive answer to the original post wouldn't be possible without more information on stack sizes (beyond just hero and villain).

emb

[Kimbell175113]

As played, shouldn't we CRAI this flop?