Player turns up hand. You make the call.

[bigfishead]

This is almost a common situation. With sutble variances. Friday nite it happened when I was delaing 15-30 at Bellagio, however the bettor turned her hand up after she had been raised on the river. She showed her ace high face up. This is often a visual show and "give up". I mucked her hand with a quick pause and aloud "xxxx, your mucking right?"

The raiser asked to be sure, but it was an obvious situation and we naturally had no problems with it.

In the ops hand from above however, this hand had several opportunities to "fix" it. First we must also understand that UTG is responsible for acting on thier own hand and knowing what the actions are to them as well. However, there were opportunities even after the hand had been mucked for this dealer to simply ask the player if they wanted to call the river raise. JUST ASK!! Point out the raise and ask!! The fact that the hand was mucked by the dealer means nothing. Cards speak, and as such had UTG called then we could have a showdown even tho UTG's cards are mucked, they were exposed.

It's obvious this dealer has never been properly trained. Just because it's Mirage doesnt mean they have. With the state of influx of new dealers and new rooms taking a certain amount of experienced dealers looking for greener grass, we must expect a fair amount of the dealers today will not understand poker as well as the players. I'm not suggesting this situation is ok. It just "is". We need to be aware of this as players and try to protect the game a little bit more.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
However, there were opportunities even after the hand had been mucked for this dealer to simply ask the player if they wanted to call the river raise. JUST ASK!! Point out the raise and ask!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you are correct that this is what the dealer should have done. Of course half the time that I ask I get some snotty answer such as " of course I'm folding what are you stupid, I can't call with that." (inevitably this comes from a paleyr who actually is stupid enough to call with that anyway.

I've never really understood why players get so upset when a dealer asks to clarify action to avoid a mistake. Sometimes I think players want the dealer to make a mistake just so they have something to gripe about.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
6/12 IIRC at the Mirage. HU on the river. UTG player bets out on a board like 8 k 2 q j with a possible flush. LP player raises. The dealer doesn't indicate the action back to utg and utg flips up a qj after a couple seconds. A couple players tell him that the action is back on him.

Dealer says it's too late and mucks the face up 2 pair of utg. Then she realizes all hell is about to break loose and pushes the pot towards the lp player. The pot isn't mixed with his chips yet. The LP player starts saying "you can call you can still call" like he's got him beat. The dealer is saying he can't, and the utg player is just stuned.

I say to the UTG player, "He's telling you he has you beat," and then wish I had instead said "Floor!" when the utg player doesn't try to call (but doesn't say he isn't calling) and the lp player flips over ace high and rakes in the pot.


summary:
Utg had qj and didn't call. LP had ace high and was awarded the pot.
So,

1. Should the dealer have called the floor and stopped the hand?

2. What should the floor's decision be at any part of this?

edited to add a wee bit of clarity

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty odd. I'd say that the dealer made a mistake in declaring his hand dead. Turning the cards up is not the same as mucking them. The floor should have been called over to sort this out.

LP is a stone cold idiot for trying to induce a call afterwords when he can actually see that the hand would beat him and he deserves to lose his money.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
This is almost a common situation. With sutble variances. Friday nite it happened when I was delaing 15-30 at Bellagio, however the bettor turned her hand up after she had been raised on the river. She showed her ace high face up. This is often a visual show and "give up". I mucked her hand with a quick pause and aloud "xxxx, your mucking right?"

The raiser asked to be sure, but it was an obvious situation and we naturally had no problems with it.

In the ops hand from above however, this hand had several opportunities to "fix" it. First we must also understand that UTG is responsible for acting on thier own hand and knowing what the actions are to them as well. However, there were opportunities even after the hand had been mucked for this dealer to simply ask the player if they wanted to call the river raise. JUST ASK!! Point out the raise and ask!! The fact that the hand was mucked by the dealer means nothing. Cards speak, and as such had UTG called then we could have a showdown even tho UTG's cards are mucked, they were exposed.

It's obvious this dealer has never been properly trained. Just because it's Mirage doesnt mean they have. With the state of influx of new dealers and new rooms taking a certain amount of experienced dealers looking for greener grass, we must expect a fair amount of the dealers today will not understand poker as well as the players. I'm not suggesting this situation is ok. It just "is". We need to be aware of this as players and try to protect the game a little bit more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points but the one thing I disagree with is that the dealer shouldn't ask the players anything. The dealer should say something like "there's a raise to you". IOW, something neutral. The problem with asking is that it can involve inflections and bad players may pick up on something and call down a bluff. Dealers should always act neutral.