Do you support Israel?

[lozen]

Both these nits are wrong Problem is they have so much hatred and history It really doesnt matter

[lozen]

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Religion sucks

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Is this really about religion?

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It always involves religion. Lennon had it right No Religion you got peace

[nicky g]

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Religion sucks

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Is this really about religion?

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It always involves religion. Lennon had it right No Religion you got peace

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It's about nationalism, not religion. Religion has caused its fair share of trouble but nationalism has outpaced it since its inception.

[Yuv]

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We are here, the Palestinians are here, the Lebanese are here. We all need to find a way to live somehow.

[/ QUOTE ] That is NOT, however (and unfortunately) the prevailing viewpoint in Jerusalem.

The Palestinians have been ready to talk shop for decades. And they did, too. Every time things looked they were leading to any form or shape of an independent Palestinian state(let), the hardliners in Israel provided another round of extreme violence. And kept upping the ante. (The latest increase in blinds & antes : The Israelis demanded that the Palestinian Authority cracks down on terrorists - at the same time that the IDF was destroying the very infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority!)

The Palestinians have accepted that, after successive and decisive military defeats, the Arabs and the Palestinians can ask for less than they were initially bargaining for.

At the heart of the matter, though, is one side's objective of annexing all of Greater Israel, getting rid of as many "natives" as possible and keeping the land inhabited by Jews in the majority.

Which is a total anachronism, of course. And which renders irrelevant the noble text of your post quoted above.

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Huh? Again, if you don't wish to discuss current event in its own prespective, let's go back to 1995-1996. Rabin's and Peres's left-wing government in control in Israel. Peace talks up the wazoo. Oslo agreements.

Then during the course of nearly 12 month the Hammas and Islamic Jihad execute suidice bombing after suicide bombing. That didn't only destroy the current peace process, but destroyed every inch of belief Israelis had in Palestine wanting their own country within 1967 boarders (and not the total distruction on Israel as a country).

Fast forward, Ehud Barak in Camp David. While there is a lot of agreement about Barak's failure as an Israeli PM, there is no doubt that he offered Arafat and the Palestinians the biggest offer Israel has ever put on the table, only to be rejected by Arafat.

There are a lot of issues to that meeting in Camp David. Barak made a lot of diplomatic mistakes (urging for an agreement with minimum discussion, offering his best pitch straight forward which convinced Arafat he "can do better", etc, etc) but it was the Palestinian who rejected the offer.

Again, Cyrus, you cannot be taken seriously until you start considering both sides in any of your "analysis".

[nicky g]

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Fast forward, Ehud Barak in Camp David. While there is a lot of agreement about Barak's failure as an Israeli PM, there is no doubt that he offered Arafat and the Palestinians the biggest offer Israel has ever put on the table, only to be rejected by Arafat.


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That does not mean it was a good offer, especially as Israel had never offered anything at all before.

[Yuv]

Rabin and Arafat already signed the Oslo agreements, that were shuttered by the Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Barak's offer was a great one, Arafat wanted more, cause he thought he can get more. He was mistaken. The only way you can dismiss Barak's offer is if you don't agree with Israel as a state inside the 1967 border lines. If that's the case, what do you want of Israel? If you do not have a partner who agrees to your existence, how exactly how you suppose to achieve peace?

[nicky g]

The Oslo accords didn't offer the Palestinians anything other than "recognition" of the PLO and municipal self-government of a few towns.

Arafat didn't agree to the Clinton paramaters because they offerend no compromise or even symbolic offer on the right if return. Without something at least symbolic on that (at Taba, where negotiatiors were close to agreement, several tens of thousands were to be allowed to return) there was no way it could have been sold to Palestinians. Arafat sent negotiators to Taba where both sides pleaded for more time and said they were close to agreement, but Barak called it off and Sharon went on to win. Presenting it as Araft turning down the best possible offer is simply wrong.

[ahnuld]

Right of return is the biggest joke i've ever heard. Beofre you bitch about that, lets see you donate your home and land to the native tribe's desendents who clearly owned your land before you did. And with them there is no argument about who is here first.

Secondly, Israel neevr kicked these people out, they chose to leave. Why do you think there are so many arab Israelis who are proud to be Israelis? Becuase when Israelk was created they were never forced to leave, they were invited to stay and help build the country and be a part of the only democracy in the arab world. Right of return my ass. They made their choice 60 years ago, their own people refuse to offer them assitance (unless it is money for weapons) and now they expect anything from Israel? What chuzpah.

[Yuv]

That isn't 100% true, ahnuld. But it doesn't matter, there is no freaking way that the right of return can be given. No way. That means the distruction of Israel as a jewish state.

While I hope that one day Israel can be a state of all religon equally (means I'm not a gigantic zionist), it is impossible at this time, due to both sides.

[nicky g]

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Right of return is the biggest joke i've ever heard. Beofre you bitch about that, lets see you donate your home and land to the native tribe's desendents who clearly owned your land before you did. And with them there is no argument about who is here first.

Secondly, Israel neevr kicked these people out, they chose to leave. Why do you think there are so many arab Israelis who are proud to be Israelis? Becuase when Israelk was created they were never forced to leave, they were invited to stay and help build the country and be a part of the only democracy in the arab world. Right of return my ass. They made their choice 60 years ago, their own people refuse to offer them assitance (unless it is money for weapons) and now they expect anything from Israel? What chuzpah.

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You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.