Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

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I read a quote from a Lebanese analyst arguing that they also have no need (and indeed would be stupid to) hide missiles in people's homes, as is often alleged without any evidence offered (by people who've rarely been anywhere near southern Lebanon), as they have a large network of reinforced bunkers throughout the Lebanese countryside to store arms in.

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This thread is quite long, but is there a link to the quote from this analyst?

Hezbollah is a guerilla army. They have no open and visible bases, barracks, storage areas or training facilities. Indeed, if they did, it would be simple for Israel to destroy them. I know that someone (nicky?) claimed that the videos of the trucks pulling into civilian areas to hide is inclusive, but I am unsure what else can be "proven." The video show flares indicating rocket launches and then a truck leaving the scene of the flares and pulling into what appears to be a large group of buildings which is supposed to be a populated area.

Now, assuming that Israel then targeted and destroyed the building where the truck went as an apparent storage area for the rockets and their launchers, is that attack by Israel justified if it turns out that the building also houses civilians?

[nicky g]

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The video show flares indicating rocket launches and then a truck leaving the scene of the flares and pulling into what appears to be a large group of buildings which is supposed to be a populated area.


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It did not seem to me like the footage of the firing and the footage of the trucks were continuous footage; from what I could make out, it showed footage of firing, and then two different pieces of separate footage of unidentified trucks driving to unidentified buildings. I'll watch it again to check later. It seemed inconclusive at best to me and given the stretcher/missiles incident I have no intention to take the army's word for it.

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This thread is quite long, but is there a link to the quote from this analyst?

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I couldn;t find it with a quick google. I'll try to remember where I saw it for you.

[BluffTHIS!]

nicky,

Hezbollah does indeed have bunkers in southern Lebanon, as it it has been reported that the IAF has hit some of them. The fact that they have some such bunkers, and that an analyst might therefore think it stupid for them to hide military assets amongst the civilian population, does not however constitute evidence that they aren't doing so. And it is beyond doubt that Hezbollah fighters wearing civilian clothes do hide in the civilian population to avoid detection.

[nicky g]

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The video show flares indicating rocket launches and then a truck leaving the scene of the flares and pulling into what appears to be a large group of buildings which is supposed to be a populated area.


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It did not seem to me like the footage of the firing and the footage of the trucks were continuous footage; from what I could make out, it showed footage of firing, and then two different pieces of separate footage of unidentified trucks driving to unidentified buildings. I'll watch it again to check later. It seemed inconclusive at best to me and given the stretcher/missiles incident I have no intention to take the army's word for it.

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I just watched the footage again and it's completely impossible to tell if the footage of the truck follows directly on from the footage of the firing. The two separate instances are broken up at least once (by some Hebrew text) after which the focus and video type seems to have completely changed, so to unequivocally assert that the trucks shown are coming from the rocket site seems a long way from justified.

[Sniper]

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Another story about Hezbollah fighting from heavily-populated civilian areas.

Hezbollah outsmarts Nicky again

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Your caption is unnecessary. I have simply pointed out that noone so far has presented any credible evidence of human shield tactics that are constantly repeated. Now we have one actual photo of weapons being placed in what is apparently a Christian suburb. Well, that's a start, and good find; at least you can be bothered to look for and present evidence, unlike the dozens of others who simply repeat the mantra "Hizballah uses babies as sandbags" over and over. If it is what it puports to be and representative of a wider pattern, then that's damning for Hizb Allah and goes some way to mitigating the proportion of civilian casualties, although far from all the way given their absurdly high number and past Israeli refusals to allow a respite for trapped people to escape, the bombing of hospitals, ambulances and refugee convoys from villages that Israel had just ordered to be evacuated and so on. I'm not quite sure it's up there with the unquestioned fact that the IDF letting children play with weapons of an artillery unit at the border preparing to shell Lebanon either, but it's a start for you guys, at least.

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I guess what you are saying is that you can't create facts by repeating them over and over again... so maybe you should stop doing that! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[nicky g]

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Another story about Hezbollah fighting from heavily-populated civilian areas.

Hezbollah outsmarts Nicky again

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Your caption is unnecessary. I have simply pointed out that noone so far has presented any credible evidence of human shield tactics that are constantly repeated. Now we have one actual photo of weapons being placed in what is apparently a Christian suburb. Well, that's a start, and good find; at least you can be bothered to look for and present evidence, unlike the dozens of others who simply repeat the mantra "Hizballah uses babies as sandbags" over and over. If it is what it puports to be and representative of a wider pattern, then that's damning for Hizb Allah and goes some way to mitigating the proportion of civilian casualties, although far from all the way given their absurdly high number and past Israeli refusals to allow a respite for trapped people to escape, the bombing of hospitals, ambulances and refugee convoys from villages that Israel had just ordered to be evacuated and so on. I'm not quite sure it's up there with the unquestioned fact that the IDF letting children play with weapons of an artillery unit at the border preparing to shell Lebanon either, but it's a start for you guys, at least.

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I guess what you are saying is that you can't create facts by repeating them over and over again... so maybe you should stop doing that! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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When have I done that?

EDIT If this is about the children writing on shells incident, you're accusing me of "creating" something that was taken from a link posted by pro-Israeli posters defending the incident. You haven't even denied it took place but rather offered exceptionally weak additional defences of it (they were having lunch! there just isn't any room in northern Israel for soldiers not to put their artillery shells in the middle of groups of children!). I think it's legitimate to raise it more than once given how often Hizb Allah's alleged disregard for/proximity to civilians has been brought up and condemned, and I did not in any way "create" it as you knwo very well.

[Sniper]

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Another story about Hezbollah fighting from heavily-populated civilian areas.

Hezbollah outsmarts Nicky again

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Your caption is unnecessary. I have simply pointed out that noone so far has presented any credible evidence of human shield tactics that are constantly repeated. Now we have one actual photo of weapons being placed in what is apparently a Christian suburb. Well, that's a start, and good find; at least you can be bothered to look for and present evidence, unlike the dozens of others who simply repeat the mantra "Hizballah uses babies as sandbags" over and over. If it is what it puports to be and representative of a wider pattern, then that's damning for Hizb Allah and goes some way to mitigating the proportion of civilian casualties, although far from all the way given their absurdly high number and past Israeli refusals to allow a respite for trapped people to escape, the bombing of hospitals, ambulances and refugee convoys from villages that Israel had just ordered to be evacuated and so on. I'm not quite sure it's up there with the unquestioned fact that the IDF letting children play with weapons of an artillery unit at the border preparing to shell Lebanon either, but it's a start for you guys, at least.

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I guess what you are saying is that you can't create facts by repeating them over and over again... so maybe you should stop doing that! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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When have I done that?

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This post would be a good example... which would explain why I responded to it in this way...

[nicky g]

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Another story about Hezbollah fighting from heavily-populated civilian areas.

Hezbollah outsmarts Nicky again

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Your caption is unnecessary. I have simply pointed out that noone so far has presented any credible evidence of human shield tactics that are constantly repeated. Now we have one actual photo of weapons being placed in what is apparently a Christian suburb. Well, that's a start, and good find; at least you can be bothered to look for and present evidence, unlike the dozens of others who simply repeat the mantra "Hizballah uses babies as sandbags" over and over. If it is what it puports to be and representative of a wider pattern, then that's damning for Hizb Allah and goes some way to mitigating the proportion of civilian casualties, although far from all the way given their absurdly high number and past Israeli refusals to allow a respite for trapped people to escape, the bombing of hospitals, ambulances and refugee convoys from villages that Israel had just ordered to be evacuated and so on. I'm not quite sure it's up there with the unquestioned fact that the IDF letting children play with weapons of an artillery unit at the border preparing to shell Lebanon either, but it's a start for you guys, at least.

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I guess what you are saying is that you can't create facts by repeating them over and over again... so maybe you should stop doing that! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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When have I done that?

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This post would be a good example... which would explain why I responded to it in this way...

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What, me responding to a poster linking to an image of Hizb Allah in a civilian area? How does that constitute making things up by repeating them?

[nicky g]

I found the article, it was from the San Francisco Chronicle. The analyst was not Lebanse in fact, from what I can tell, but is based in Lebanon:

Civilian toll raises questions

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But other experts say Hezbollah has no need to use civilian houses because it has an elaborate network of bunkers and missile launchers in deserted areas throughout the country.

"This is not some cynical Saddam Hussein plan of putting missiles in hospitals," said Nicholas Noe, the founder of the Beirut-based Mideastwire.com, an online bulletin of Arabic and Farsi media. He said Hezbollah has such carefully established firing positions in the sparsely populated southern Lebanon that it has "no reason strategically ... of putting Katyusha rockets in civilian houses."


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"They say they are striking Hezbollah strongholds, but the question you have to ask: What kind of intelligence, exactly, Israel has on the ground in Lebanon?" said Noe, who researches Hezbollah and has lived in Beirut for the past three years. An air strike Wednesday on two well-drilling trucks in the upscale Christian Beirut neighborhood of Achrafiyeh suggests that some of Israel's intelligence might be faulty.

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[Sniper]

The IDF assessed on Monday that Hizbullah's rocket launching capability was significantly compromised by the fighting that took place in the past three weeks.

It was estimated that, while the organization still has hundreds of rockets with a sufficient range to reach Afula and Haifa, there were only a number of launchers remaining with launching capability.

The Hizbullah still had several Zilzal rockets left that could reach central Israel, Army Radio reported.