Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team - Page 6

assius · #51 07-18-2007, 02:02 PM

So you think Boca Juniors and Sao Paulo are not good? Wake up. Just because they dont play in Europe does not mean they are not good!

If they are not that good, why the hell did they prevail against Europes best? If Sao Paulo can beat Liverpool, imagine what Brasil would have done!

assius · #52 07-18-2007, 02:03 PM

Yes of course there, my point here was to show that team work is not everything!

Also, there is a world of difference between say the mls all stars and argentina, germany, holland, brasil, and even mediocre national sides.

JaredL · #53 07-18-2007, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So you think Boca Juniors and Sao Paulo are not good? Wake up. Just because they dont play in Europe does not mean they are not good!

[/ QUOTE ]

Boca Juniors and Sao Paulo would be a pretty big dog in a home and home with any of the top 5 or so clubs in England, Spain and Italy and the top couple clubs in France and Germany if both teams in the match had a similar level of interest. They win these international cup competitions for the same reason that sometimes the MLS teams give teams like Chelsea, Real Madrid and Barcelona very competitive matches or even win - they care a lot more about the competitions than their European counterparts.

If they played in the Spanish league they would probably be a mid-table team that was in the fight for the UEFA Cup but not quite get there usually.

assius · #54 07-18-2007, 02:37 PM

Sorry but that is ridiculous...

Liverpool and AC Milan had 100 percent teams for these competitions and it was very obvious they cared a great deal.

Sounds like your making excuses...

As for Sao Paulo being a mid table team, that is nothing but guessing, I see no facts to back that claim up.

ThaSaltCracka · #55 07-18-2007, 02:56 PM

hey assius, welcome to 2p2, I see you like soccer, keep posting here!

gusmahler · #56 07-18-2007, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes of course there, my point here was to show that team work is not everything!

Also, there is a world of difference between say the mls all stars and argentina, germany, holland, brasil, and even mediocre national sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that talent can make up for lack of team work, right?

Well, the original question was if a top club team and beat a top national team. As far as pure talent goes, I'd think I'd put Chelsea, Barcelona, Milan, etc. against Italy or France.

You have to remember that the top club teams consist almost exclusively of national team members.

JaredL · #57 07-18-2007, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As for Sao Paulo being a mid table team, that is nothing but guessing, I see no facts to back that claim up.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my statement is nothing but guessing then so is this entire thread.

Compare the talent on Sao Paulo with the talent on the teams in the top leagues. I'm most familiar with the Spanish and English leagues so I'll just use those. In Spain Real Madrid and Barcelona have significantly better players at every single position on the pitch. Sevilla, Valencia, Zaragoza, Villarreal and Atletico de Madrid are significantly better in some spots on the field and about the same at others. This is especially true for Sevilla and Valencia. When you look at teams like Sao Paulo and Boca Juniors, they look about the same level as teams like Zaragoza, Villarreal and Atletico de Madrid. IMO they would be a notch below this group but a bit better than a team like Recreativo de Huelva. Based on talent you can make no valid argument that these teams are anywhere near the level of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla or Valencia especially the first two.

In England Chelsea and Manchester United are easily better at every position on the pitch. Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Everton were the next four finishers and are similarly to the Spanish sides better overall than Boca or Sao Paulo. I think these teams would either go toward the high end of the next group down or at the bottom of that group. As I said, fighting for the UEFA Cup spots.

This says little about depth. The gap in talent is even more exaggerated when you look at subs. Chelsea is an extreme case but their second squad is probably better at every position than the first squad for Sao Paulo or Boca Juniors.

You say that the pinnacle is making the national team. If we're using that thinking, then it's clear that Sao Paulo is significantly worse than the top clubs in the world since they had 2 players playing any national team for a combined 8 caps! They are a squad of basically all Brazilian players and yet Real Madrid, Werder Bremen, and Hertha Berlin have as many players on the Brazilian national team as they do! Boca Juniors is a bit better with 5 or 6 guys playing for some national team (and even one that's regularly featured!). Compare this with the top clubs in Europe and it's not even close. Manchester United, Chelsea, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Liverpool, Lyon, etc. all have several players that are regulars for top national teams and a few that are the top players on the national teams. Again, they are more comparable in terms of guys with national team experience to the teams in the middle of the table of the top leagues than those at the top.

JaredL · #58 07-18-2007, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You have to remember that the top club teams consist almost exclusively of national team members.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument isn't really valid since 100% of national team players for Brazil, Argentina, England, Spain, Italy, France etc. play on club teams.

As I said above, the thing that seals it IMO is that there are a lot of top class players that play on lesser national teams. By comparison there are very few top players that don't play for top club teams. This concentrates the talent on the top club teams much more so than the top national teams.

JaredL · #59 07-18-2007, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hey assius, welcome to 2p2, I see you like soccer, keep posting here!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. While I'm on the others side in this one, it's fun to debate these kind of random things and get a variety of opinions and perspectives.

gusmahler · #60 07-18-2007, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You have to remember that the top club teams consist almost exclusively of national team members.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument isn't really valid since 100% of national team players for Brazil, Argentina, England, Spain, Italy, France etc. play on club teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

His point was that the best players in the world all play for national teams. My point was that every player on Chelsea, Man U, Barca, etc. all play for national teams also.