(LC/Strat) How often do you make plays like this?

[Mr_Donktastic]

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plus, a shove always looks like you're looking for a call.

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Did you mean to say that a shove makes it look like I want a FOLD?

[Mr_Donktastic]

Raistlinx hit the nail on the head in many ways, esp this part:

"The question then is not "is this a good play" (+EV) but "was this the right time for the play". To answer that question you have to not only look at Villians hand, but also the range the villian puts you on....That means the frequency that this play is made has to be such that villian knows that he can't call profitably because you will too often show up with a hand that beats him. Game theory will tell how often to make this play."

This hand is about an overall strategy that if used properly can be very effective. If used incorrectly it can be disasterous.

You don't HAVE to mix this strategy into your gameplan.

But I think if you don't you will get exploited as you move up. Maybe not enough to become a losing player but enough to cut into your winrate.

I don't think that anyone needs to really consider this until >= 200nl, but there are important concepts here to put in the toolbox at any level you play.

[Specialwon]

Yeah, I would definitely cut myself using this kind of ninja move at NL10. Very interesting discussion though, I thought it was maybe just showboating at first but there is clearly some benefit in the right spot.

[nickcee]

I don't think the math analysis-though useful-is going to give you a true estimate of the "correct" play. There are just too many variables to quantify. I think it's most likely +EV to neutral. This is basically a feel question. I play mostly 50NL,100NL occasionally 200 NL,so in my regular games it's probably negative. On rare occassions I have used it, but I can't really verbalize my reasoning behind it. I like the hand as played. Did u post the outcome-just curious?

[Raised2Win]

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-EV.

Hardly ever.

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depends how often this particular player raises your cbets. Pick your spot well and I dont mind this move. And its +EV when u pick it well for sure.

[King Spew]

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You gotta mix it up, I make this play once in a while against regs for METAGAME.

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I think this play is clearly +EV when metagame is added.

Subsequently, I look to do this type of move when the table has dried up a bit. This works great for a NIT like me.... and I too play my sets like this at times. The rereraise PUSH might have the effect of shaking up the table abit....which is ALWAYS good for me.

Against a semi-shortie, I think we have less FE than we think. However, we have more outs than we think also. The flop reraise can EASILY be JJ-77.

I WISH I made this play more often. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jhill3535]

I probably do it too much. Usually I do it more against a medium stack that min raises my c-bet on a flop like this one. Usually it is against a player whos preflop range is wide enough that I wouldn't have minded getting it all in preflop with AK, so I just pretend that he made the raise preflop, then i pushed and we got to see all 5 cards, but I happened to miss on the first 3.....still have a chance on the turn and river if he calls.

[Mr_Donktastic]

Since someone asked...he instafolded.

Moral: Don't forget about the possibility that they are c/raising you with air!

[RipperTEQ]

nh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Renton]

sometimes, but then again i actually use this line with overpairs and sets all the time.

Sparingly though. If we're a little deeper i'd rather just call and shove to his turn bet. Gets more money in the pot, looks more convincing and much better r/r.