Blind defense checkup - Page 5

bugstud · #41 04-25-2007, 01:24 AM

folding pre here is absurd

HOWMANY · #42 04-25-2007, 01:59 AM

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Your hand is too weak to be trying to extract value like this. Just give him this one. He'll pay you off some other time when you show up with a real hand.

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People I play with say things like this all the time to me and like clockwork they almost always manage to leave the casino a lot sooner than I do and with a lot less money because while they are sitting around and waiting for a good spot I'm turning lemons into lemonade.

Certainly you should wait for a "good" spot, but IMO this is a good spot. Passing up a situation just because it's tough is retarded. If it can be profitable then the only way to make it profitable is by playing the situation until you start doing it right.

private joker · #43 04-25-2007, 04:13 AM

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The reason a bluff is profitable for him is because you shouldn't be playing such a weak hand in the first place. 86s is a TERRIBLE hand to defend the blind with; and then you go and check-raise to protect a pot with only 4 small bets in it.

You should fold pre-flop, you should fold post flop. Your hand is too weak to be trying to extract value like this. Just give him this one. He'll pay you off some other time when you show up with a real hand.

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I make plenty of mistakes and I still have a lot to learn in poker. But this post you wrote is simply awful, I'm afraid. I'm worried about your game if this is how you think about poker, so in order to help you I can only recommend you start reading books and thinking about the game a little more deeply -- most especially please pick up the new book Winning in Tough Holdem Games by a guy who responded in this thread: Stoxtrader. You apparently missed his post the first time, so go back and read it and then read 300 pages more. He has a lot to teach you and it's never too late to learn.

(By the way, he checked behind, I showed, and he mucked and I took down a pot worth 6BBs).

AragornX151 · #44 04-25-2007, 09:57 AM

Folding 86s to a button raise from a loose player is beyond awful. Reraising and calling are both fine preflop; I'm apt to do either depending on the situation.

ssmallz · #45 04-25-2007, 10:16 AM

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huh? From the blind stealer's perspective, why would I NOT want to steal someone's blind when he is giving me a lot of action with bottom pair?

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B/c bottom pair isn't a weak hand at all when heads up against a button steal. If I'm otb, I'm continuation betting HU ~100% of the time. If I know I'm gonna get check raised w/a weak hand as well as a strong one, I'm hating my hand. More often than not button will miss the flop and your flop c/r w/a bottom pair puts him in a really tough spot.

Lets say I have A8o here and get c/r'ed on that board. What do I do? I've gotta think he could have a K, Q, draw or 6. The pot is small and I have no clue if I've got 3 outs, 6 outs, or the best hand. This is a situation in poker that you will hate when you're the button.

I'd much rather play against a guy who only c/r's his good hands, then I'll win many more pots UI and get many more freebee's. In that A8o hand, if I bet the flop and he just calls, I'm likely to check to the turn and take a freebe figuring I need to improve to hit my hand.

elena_elphie · #46 04-25-2007, 01:01 PM

Someone got kicked off a table at the Commerce for an obsenity?? I thought attempted murder netted a 20-minute timeout there.

private joker · #47 04-25-2007, 01:17 PM

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Someone got kicked off a table at the Commerce for an obsenity?? I thought attempted murder netted a 20-minute timeout there.

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HA! I know, I thought it was weird too. So much abuse and shouting goes on all the time...

One theory was that the floorman was Armenian and one of the combatants was Armenian, and the guy who was removed was Arab -- so there were complaints of some sort of racism/favoritism but I don't buy it. It was a good floorman who just wasn't going to tolerate that much belligerance.

DeuceKicker · #48 04-25-2007, 03:25 PM

It probably didn't help that I was at the next table and could hear the Arab continue to drop bombs with the floorman standing right there.

"You're my friend. Dealer, deal him out."

emerson · #49 04-25-2007, 08:22 PM

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B/c bottom pair isn't a weak hand at all when heads up against a button steal.

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Its pretty damn weak against this flop. The steal ranges with big cards have kickers as low as 2 or 3 for an Ace or King, and as low as a 5 or 7 for a Queen. The probability of the raiser having them is much higher than him having a J or T, for example. He probably has an A,K or Q, or a pocket pair. Bottom pair of sixes with an 8 kicker is in trouble.

I looked through the BB defense section in the Stoxtrader book and didn't really find an example that came close to comparing to this in weakness of initial hand coupled with a flop this bad. In most of the examples Stox has a big card. But looking at a few where he doesn't: In #12 he has 3,2 of spades, but the small blind had also called giving him better pot odds... and then he flopped a flush draw. #14 Stox has 7,8 but flops trips on a 772 flop. Hand #26, Stox calls in the BB with 7,6 suited. The flop gives him top pair with an open end straight. Hand #32, Stox has a weakie here, 8,6 offsuit. Here comes the flop, 966, wow. Hand #42, Stox has T,8 offsuit. Flop is T42... top pair.

There is only one example in the book that is even remotely close to this one when combining the weakness of the starting hand with the flop. #37. Stox has 6,4 of spades in the BB and the flop comes QJ5 with two spades. He has a flush draw and backdoor straight draw on a QJ flop, which is not nearly as bad as a KQ flop. Also, he has stats on this opponent and puts him on a 40% stealing range. I don't know how you can be close to that accurate live.

This all just looks very loose to me.

Sailboats · #50 04-25-2007, 08:36 PM

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Someone got kicked off a table at the Commerce for an obsenity?? I thought attempted murder netted a 20-minute timeout there.

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HA! I know, I thought it was weird too. So much abuse and shouting goes on all the time...

One theory was that the floorman was Armenian and one of the combatants was Armenian, and the guy who was removed was Arab -- so there were complaints of some sort of racism/favoritism but I don't buy it. It was a good floorman who just wasn't going to tolerate that much belligerance.

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haha... wow that is suprising. Who was the floorman? Archie?