there are racial and ethnic differences in IQ

[jason_t]

Just read Stephen J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man.

[MrMon]

I think the idea that race does not exist is a bunch of feel-good politically correct nonsense and a deliberate misstating of the data. If by the idea of "race" we mean that people who look alike are of the same race, that pretty much is a social construct. But if we take the idea of "race" to mean any group of people who have been geographically or culturally isolated for a long period of time, long enough to create a genetic subtype, then the concept of "race" certainly exists biologically. And any given individual can belong to more than one genetic subtype.

If each of these subtypes can possess certain genetic characteristics in the negative, e.g. Tay-Sachs, sickle cell Anemia, or cystic fibrosis, why cannot these same subgroups also possess positive characteristics as well? Inconvenient question, and certainly controversial, but I think everyday experience tells us that there are bound to be some characteristics for which it is true.

The real key is realizing that just because someone belongs to a group that has a tendency to have this or that trait is to realize that it is not an indicator that any given individual actually has this or that trait. There is variation within the group. But fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the trait, the dice are loaded, and you get one roll. The result is called a person. And we should judge people on who they are as individuals, not what group they belong to.

[Rduke55]

Why am I too weak to resist these threads?

[ QUOTE ]
I think the idea that race does not exist is a bunch of feel-good politically correct nonsense and a deliberate misstating of the data.

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It's because of the data it's thought to be a social construct.

[ QUOTE ]
If by the idea of "race" we mean that people who look alike are of the same race, that pretty much is a social construct. But if we take the idea of "race" to mean any group of people who have been geographically or culturally isolated for a long period of time,long enough to create a genetic subtype, then the concept of "race" certainly exists biologically.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to realize that a given race is made up of a large number of these groups. That's where a huge problem with race is. Besides it being a continuum, genetic differences between populations within a race is often greater than differences between races.

Also, most of these threads start by talking about MASSIVELY complex traits like intelligence, which is the result of a shitload of genes, environment, etc. rather than something like variation in a certain protein.

[guesswest]

I read about that marshmallow test too - I'm not surprised by the result. Deferred gratification is a skill possessed by almost every successful person I've ever met (and is very useful in poker). It's also unfortunately a skill I'm totally lacking in [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] - I'd have taken the single marshmallow even if the alternative was 100 of them 30 seconds later.

You can't take a valid IQ test online.


RE: the race thing. There was a thread going on here a while ago about race and IQ - it does turn out that there are significant physiological differences in brain structures and weight (both of which are indicators of IQ) throughout different parts of the world, notably Africa which records lower IQs, and in proportion to brain physiology (ie higher IQ's in the North). So whether IQ tests are racially biased in a cultural sense, of whether certain racial groups just have lower IQs due to hardwiring, I don't know. I was intuitively opposed to the idea that a particularly racial group could be inherently 'smarter' but it seems theres a lot of compelling evidence out there to that effect. And yes race is a continuum, so's aging, the fact that there's crossover doesn't mean it's non-existant.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]

RE: the race thing. There was a thread going on here a while ago about race and IQ - it does turn out that there are significant physiological differences in brain structures and weight (both of which are indicators of IQ) throughout different parts of the world, notably Africa which records lower IQs, and in proportion to brain physiology (ie higher IQ's in the North). So whether IQ tests are racially biased in a cultural sense, of whether certain racial groups just have lower IQs due to hardwiring, I don't know. I was intuitively opposed to the idea that a particularly racial group could be inherently 'smarter' but it seems theres a lot of compelling evidence out there to that effect. And yes race is a continuum, so's aging, the fact that there's crossover doesn't mean it's non-existant.

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There was a lot of discussion on the serious flaws in the concept, design, methodology, and interpretation of those studies as well. Most people in those fields doo not see those studies as accurate.

And the continuum is only one reason of the trouble with race as I and others have stated before.

[FlFishOn]

"The problem is that racial identification is a MODERN fiction."

In the not too distant past everyone had a solid mental image to go along with any racial identifier. I still do. An awful lot of the old time racial prejudices/stereotypes were well correlated. Some still are.

[FlFishOn]

"Forget whether or not The Bell Curve is true for a moment and consider the implications if it were true. What would be the implications to society? "

This is what rocked the world. If they are at all close then so many social programs as now constructed are simply pissing into the wind. This was a concept that could not stand.

I've read the book twice and about 10 other works in the same area. I find it plausable and that convinces me that we have little hope of successfully addressing many current social problems. I'm certain that today any Bell Curve ideas can not be implemented under any circumstances here in the US, they are too hot. If you mention Blacks in any way that is unflattering and you hold any public position you will be signing your own professional death warrant (Jimmy the Greek, Rush Limbaugh, Trent Lott). Even Bill Cosby ran into resistance.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to realize that a given race is made up of a large number of these groups. That's where a huge problem with race is. Besides it being a continuum, genetic differences between populations within a race is often greater than differences between races.

Also, most of these threads start by talking about MASSIVELY complex traits like intelligence, which is the result of a shitload of genes, environment, etc. rather than something like variation in a certain protein.

[/ QUOTE ]What is wrong with talking about massively complex traits like intelligence? Also, how can you be sure that it isnt a certain protein?? We can measure athletic differences by something as simple as fast twitch muscles. What on earth outlaws a simple solution for differences in intelligence?

[moorobot]

[ QUOTE ]


RE: the race thing. There was a thread going on here a while ago about race and IQ - it does turn out that there are significant physiological differences in brain structures and weight (both of which are indicators of IQ) throughout different parts of the world, notably Africa which records lower IQs, and in proportion to brain physiology (ie higher IQ's in the North). So whether IQ tests are racially biased in a cultural sense, of whether certain racial groups just have lower IQs due to hardwiring, I don't know. I was intuitively opposed to the idea that a particularly racial group could be inherently 'smarter' but it seems theres a lot of compelling evidence out there to that effect. And yes race is a continuum, so's aging, the fact that there's crossover doesn't mean it's non-existant.

[/ QUOTE ] These studies were flawed:

[ QUOTE ]
Just read Stephen J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man.


[/ QUOTE ]

[moorobot]

[ QUOTE ]


"The problem is that racial identification is a MODERN fiction."

In the not too distant past everyone had a solid mental image to go along with any racial identifier. I still do. An awful lot of the old time racial prejudices/stereotypes were well correlated. Some still are.


[/ QUOTE ] No, race is not a biological fact, it is only real in our minds period.

The reason these prejudices/ stereotypes were well correlated, if they indeed were, was because of environmental differences, not genetics; it was luck in the social lottery and not the natural lottery that lead to any differences.