Discussion: Defending the Button

[BombayBadboy]

You got some good points there. How do you think about the 'we only pretend to fight for the blinds part'?

Isn't it really about playing pots in position?

[eigenvalue]

Wrong question:

The reraising function is 2-dimensional. For example if you reraise one raiser from 4BB to 12BB, the function is:

f(p,q) = 5.5p+(1-p)(13.5q-12(1-q)) = 17.5p+25.5q-12-25.5pq, where p is your fold equity and q is the value of your hand if you are called. In case of T9s, it's better to have a high fold equity (a high value of p) instead of a low one, because the value q for that hand is low (it doesn't play very good heads up). Better to have a high p value when you have a low q and vice versa.

[br.bm]

could you use better shorties than p and q? (I hate especially these two together [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

like:
"fold equity" fe
"hand value" hv
it's easier to write it with p and q but harder to read.

anyway ... how did you come to this math? those 2d problems are really intresting.
for example: someone donked $2 into $15 and I have a flush draw ... call for draw value or raise for fold equity?
(pm in german if you like to )

[RepulseMonkey]

If I remember right the quote by I-strong was with respect to limpers not pf raisers.

"The button is like the doorman of a nightclub. He decides if the limpers in front of him get to see the flop or not" This is an old quote from KKF back in the day when he still used to post strategy

I believe this is perhaps what concept of "defending the button" is about.

Interesting discussion though.

[74o_Clownsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I'm gonna fold. Some players could argue 'you have to defend your blinds!' but this isn't a tournament. In a cash game, defend your button."

[/ QUOTE ]
This is really way off. "Defending your blinds" refers to defending the equity your live money has in the pot and is as important in cash games as in the early stages of a tournament.

OTB you're not forced to put any money in the pot at all, consequently there's nothing gained by "stealing the button"* and hence no need to "defend your button". Off course you can play a wider range profitably OTB than UTG, but that bears no relevance to this discussion.

* off course CO's range gains value when he opens and the button folds, but this value doesn't come from the button, it comes from the blinds!

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, everyone has to post blinds every orbit. It's a "tax" so to speak and yes the initial struggle in every hand is for that blind money.

But attempting to "defend" your meekly orbital input OOP constantly is a recipe for sure disaster. You're not "forced" to put in any money on the button obviously, but you are in the best spot to win the money that is out there. No one is putting a gun to your head to enter the pot, but when you do so you have much higher equity than entering from the blinds.

Although transparent and far from optimal, I believe you could fold every hand from the blinds for a single raise (except for premiums etc) and still be a very profitable winner. In fact I bet if some players did just that their winrates would skyrocket.

[iSTRONG]

Sorry to be bumping a semi-old thread. Good discussion.

I just want to mention that the first time I heard about "defending your button" was in a Green Plastic vid on cardrunners. It was a real revelation for me too. I should have probably credited it in my vid. Taylor C pwns.

[CastlesMadeASand]

[ QUOTE ]
to the guy said he'd rather call a nit's raise with 72o then KJo:
that is fucked up dude. you'd rather not call the raise with either, but KJ has less of a neg EV then 72.

I think you also said folding is out of the question OTB w/ T9d vs a LAG. Well, I fold there alot. I think it's right to fold there alot, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not saying id cold call w/ 72o vs a tag, im saying that my hand doesnt matter becuase im going to be making alot more plays if hes really nitty and straight forward postflop. obv KJ>72, but i was just making a point that a lot of the time my hand wont matter here.

[wrkingtobegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I'm gonna fold. Some players could argue 'you have to defend your blinds!' but this isn't a tournament. In a cash game, defend your button."

[/ QUOTE ]
This is really way off. "Defending your blinds" refers to defending the equity your live money has in the pot and is as important in cash games as in the early stages of a tournament.

OTB you're not forced to put any money in the pot at all, consequently there's nothing gained by "stealing the button"* and hence no need to "defend your button". Off course you can play a wider range profitably OTB than UTG, but that bears no relevance to this discussion.

* off course CO's range gains value when he opens and the button folds, but this value doesn't come from the button, it comes from the blinds!

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, everyone has to post blinds every orbit. It's a "tax" so to speak and yes the initial struggle in every hand is for that blind money.

But attempting to "defend" your meekly orbital input OOP constantly is a recipe for sure disaster. You're not "forced" to put in any money on the button obviously, but you are in the best spot to win the money that is out there. No one is putting a gun to your head to enter the pot, but when you do so you have much higher equity than entering from the blinds.

Although transparent and far from optimal, I believe you could fold every hand from the blinds for a single raise (except for premiums etc) and still be a very profitable winner. In fact I bet if some players did just that their winrates would skyrocket.

[/ QUOTE ]

Defending your button on a regular basis means defending your most profitable position to make money in No-Limit Hold-em. I think of this game as a continual tradeoff of being forced to put money in when out of position versus having great position for free which allows us to win big pots. You win money by playing in position which overcomes the "tax of the blinds", and thus, you should actively consider the value of your button to you when facing a raise, similar to the notion of "defending" your blinds. This is completely legitimate.

[wrkingtobegreat]

Great post, great thread.