100/200: big call down - Page 4

RoundTower · #31 11-11-2006, 12:52 AM

I think calling flop only with 2 pair+ is worse.

theBruiser500 · #32 11-11-2006, 12:53 AM

better to have bottom pair with 3 cards to two pair, and some backdoor draws then QQ imo

aba20 · #33 11-11-2006, 01:05 AM

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I don't really like any part of your play in this hand except preflop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I agree. I try to post the more interesting hands and hands which my play is questionable. I really hate how I played this hand, but hindsight is 20/20.

CaptDEEbo · #34 11-11-2006, 01:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
better to have bottom pair with 3 cards to two pair, and some backdoor draws then QQ imo

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O RLY?? K THNKS

BluffTHIS! · #35 11-11-2006, 01:41 AM

aba,

One other thing in general about these situations is that I am sometimes willing to call weak in position if I have some reasonable outs (maybe just a gutshot and a 2 outs to an overpair) PLUS am intending to bluff a certain portion of drawing cards that might come IF I think the opponent is capable of folding a set, especially if a flush comes. Maybe like 3 non-pairing flush cards that could also make a straight or higher straight than what was already there.

I probably wouldn't do it on that particular flop though because there was already a made straight out on the flop in addition to sets and 2 pairs + draws that he could have.

BTW, here is a link to a thread in the archives started by David Sklansky called Gus Hansen and a few others like him which gives a lot of insight into Gus' thought process in a pot, particularly tournaments. A few posts down ChrisBrown gives a summary of Gus' view of equity in any situation, although one of those equities only has to do with tourneys.

pete fabrizio · #36 11-11-2006, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know this is very read dependant but hopefully it will spark some discussion. Villian is gus hansen and is very capable of running a bluff. My image is tight solid. Comments welcome on all streets. I will answer any read questions as they come up.

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $100/$200
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $24139
SB: $8594
BB: $21921

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $700, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1500, 2 players)
BB bets $1500, Hero calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4500, 2 players)
BB bets $4500, Hero calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($13500, 2 players)
BB bets $13500, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $40500

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno aba. The flip side of Gus being capable of semi-bluffing flop and turn and bluffing the river is that he is also probably capable of betting fairly thin for value, i.e. keep firing with a set, 2 pair, or (less likely in this case) AA. My guess without looking at the results is that you feel sick after he value-bet you with 7-5 or something.

Basically I think this is a fold on every street, with the river being closest. Your hand is just so vulnerable, even some of his worst possible holdings are going to have very good value against you, so even if you assume you're likely to be ahead on the flop, it's just not worth it. I might like it a little better if you had at least some weird ways to win, but your hand is basically dead in every direction. E.g., even if a queen comes, half the time it will complete flush (plus straight is still out there). Your only blocking card is that solo 6. You don't have a pair that could make trips or aces up, and you don't even have any runner-runner draws. In heads-up and shorthanded situations where there is less certainty and the decisions are much closer, these things really add up.

theBruiser500 · #37 11-11-2006, 03:16 AM

i really don't think he is value betting 75 or AA, i dont think he even check/calls with two pair he check/folds it or at least it's close. if he bets with it as i think aba said he's bluffing

pete fabrizio · #38 11-11-2006, 03:46 AM

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i really don't think he is value betting 75 or AA, i dont think he even check/calls with two pair he check/folds it or at least it's close. if he bets with it as i think aba said he's bluffing

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I don't really think he could have AA on this hand either, just that in situations where you'd like it to be bluffing/monster, very good lag players could be value-betting a wide range of hands, including AA. Sometimes those bets also have fold equity, fine. E.g., I don't see why betting 7-5 in this hand would be a "bluff." Maybe aba calls with a worse hand, maybe he folds a better one. Great.

Edit: I happen to think the former is much more likely than the latter in this case.

guilt_trip · #39 11-11-2006, 11:28 AM

Assuming Gus is going to keep firing away at the pot here do we really want to have to call two pot sized bets with a bare QQ? I think the call on the flop is fine and we re-evaluate the turn here.

When he comes out firing pot on the turn I think we can give it up. If he's bluffed us, then so be it and move onto the next hand. I think if we had the flush draw with the overpair the call on the turn is fine.

I think two pair is a possibility, Gus could easily think he has overpair+flush draw or something onlong those lines with his calldown, so why not bet out?

donkey · #40 11-11-2006, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know this is very read dependant but hopefully it will spark some discussion. Villian is gus hansen and is very capable of running a bluff. My image is tight solid. Comments welcome on all streets. I will answer any read questions as they come up.

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $100/$200
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $24139
SB: $8594
BB: $21921

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $700, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1500, 2 players)
BB bets $1500, Hero calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4500, 2 players)
BB bets $4500, Hero calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($13500, 2 players)
BB bets $13500, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $40500

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raise the river so he'll fold 2pair