20/180- 89s- I've raised PF- and have an 8hi flop...now what? LAG???

[0evg0]

LOL at comments like "I don't mind the line postflop considering we are playing LAG."

This has been talked about ad nauseum on here and it seems to go right over people's heads. Whether you fold, call, or reraise Villain's min-raise it is not LAG, it is not TAG, it is not [censored], and it is not ZAG. It is good, better, best. It is wrong, right, wrong. It is... etc, etc.

The reraise of Villain's lead was horrible, okay. But folding here would be too. And I'm not saying stay in the pot because I'm a LAG, I'm saying it because mathematically, EVically, common sensically, it is the right play.

TAG and LAG are just different ways of getting to the same place.

[bestcellar]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL at comments like "I don't mind the line postflop considering we are playing LAG."

This has been talked about ad nauseum on here and it seems to go right over people's heads. Whether you fold, call, or reraise Villain's min-raise it is not LAG, it is not TAG, it is not [censored], and it is not ZAG. It is good, better, best. It is wrong, right, wrong. It is... etc, etc.

The reraise of Villain's lead was horrible, okay. But folding here would be too. And I'm not saying stay in the pot because I'm a LAG, I'm saying it because mathematically, EVically, common sensically, it is the right play.

TAG and LAG are just different ways of getting to the same place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah, specifically raising 1000 is pretty bad, but I don't mind a push postflop.

I'm happy to see someone finally agrees that mathematically folding is bad after raising the flop period.

[0evg0]

I'm not even one of those math guys. It'd take me 5 minutes to figure out if this is correct or not. It's just that I've been in this spot soooo many times that it's as instinctual as knowing to call the shortstack's all-in when you have J5 in the BB.

[stevepa]

0,

I agree with everything you've said in this thread except that you shouldn't fold now. This is a set 99.999% of the time. And you can't just look at immediate pot odds. The guy is shoving his last 3k or whatever on the turn everytime. Are you calling the flop and folding the turn?

Steve

P.S. If no one ever used the words LAG and TAG ever again, I would be a happier person.

[mornelth]

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. If no one ever used the words LAG and TAG ever again, I would be a happier person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awww, comeooooon, labels are FUN!

I think we should hold a 2+2 challenge for the title of the LAGgiest TAG (and maybe a follow-up for the TAGgiest LAG...)

[bestcellar]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a set 99.999% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

See this is just getting plain stupid now. And yes, I understand hyperbole.

Also Steve, the 2.8:1 pot odds I've been using all thread include all of villain's remaining stack.

[XraySpeX]

I would really like to know what you do after you just call his flop bet. I get into this situation quite frequently as well and am never certain what I should be doing.

Most the time when you raise the flop you take it down and that is generally what I want when I have a hand like this that is very vulnerable if you are ahead. If he has overcards most the time he will just fold when you raise which is fine with me.

I just don't know what to do if I call the bet on the flop and then my opponent bets out again on the turn.

XraySpeX

[bestcellar]

[ QUOTE ]
I would really like to know what you do after you just call his flop bet. I get into this situation quite frequently as well and am never certain what I should be doing.

Most the time when you raise the flop you take it down and that is generally what I want when I have a hand like this that is very vulnerable if you are ahead. If he has overcards most the time he will just fold when you raise which is fine with me.

I just don't know what to do if I call the bet on the flop and then my opponent bets out again on the turn.

XraySpeX

[/ QUOTE ]

You fold unless you improve, and if you improve you push his turn bet.

[SilverLining1]

So, you raise to 500 because you are afraid that if you raise more and you get called you will lose another 300 chips and blah blah blah. OR, I hope, you raised to 500 for pot control with a marginal but potentially powerful hand. I think it's the latter...

Raise to 500 gives SB more than good reason to call with a wide range of suited hands and pocket pairs. And then that is OK. But then, you mini raise him less than the pot. And you balloon it. Then, you wonder what you are doing now he has raised to to 2800, basically committing himself?

You could CALL his 800 and see what he does on the turn. That is what you should do. Maybe a 6 or a 9 comes up, and maybe he checks and gives you a free card. Or maybe he doesn't and you have to fold; unless, that is, he bets 800 again and you are getting good odds. Or maybe nothing. Maybe you catch a 9 and you can now push or call a push. Whatever the case, this is a mess. You ballooned the pot with a marginal hand, you committed SB (who is doing just fine with whatever he is holding btw), and you are now in a tight spot.

I don't see what calling does. Even if you call, it's possible he bluffs with 109 or with 56 here, and if that is the case, you are looking at a lot of scare cards. He could also be slow playing a monster.

Fold. Remember this line and try varying it a bit if you catch a monster.

[SilverLining1]

[ QUOTE ]
0,

I agree with everything you've said in this thread except that you shouldn't fold now. This is a set 99.999% of the time. And you can't just look at immediate pot odds. The guy is shoving his last 3k or whatever on the turn everytime. Are you calling the flop and folding the turn?

Steve

P.S. If no one ever used the words LAG and TAG ever again, I would be a happier person.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh. Let's all try to remember this is a tournament, not a cash game.