20NL: 2nd pair vs. shorty showing weakness

[members_only]

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also besides opening up a spot like this, it allows him to get away easily when u show aggression.

Say he had AJ and has whiffed the flop, he cbets and u push, he folds

whereas preflop u 3 bet, he pushes u call, 1010 holds up

lame example really just something to think about as if he has nothing ur prob not getting his whole stack anymore

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What?

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Take the time to read it again. It's a great reason for 3betting preflop. The issue I had here was that the stack size was a little awkward. 40+ BB is a little too deep for pushing pre and if he flat calls, I will see a nasty flop more than 70% of the time, i.e. at least one overcard and I need to get my money in first to act without knowing anything. Like this I was able to evaluate first. Since I found the board reasonably safe since there was only one overcard hand he hasn't hit anything the huge majority of the time unless he has a bigger PP, I think I could proceed. This is a rationalization in hindsight, of course. But I think it's interesting to discuss what the best line is in general.

Actually, I think this hand is a great example for playing a 40BB-60BB stack and playing a TP->all-in style.

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I actually took some time to read it the first time as it didn't really seem to make sense. PJ seems to be saying that he'd prefer to get it all in pre with 55% equity (or whatever) than to c/r the c-bet on a favourable flop and take down a decent pot uncontested. The latter is clearly better. This is only one example, which he admits is lame, but he explains it by saying 'if he has nothing [and you don't 3-bet] you're prob not getting his whole stack anymore.' This also seems an odd thing to say, since if he has nothing and you 3-bet he will almost certainly just fold. I thought these problems were quite intuitively obvious, so I expressed my incomprehension with the somewhat lazy 'What?' rather than spelling it out

I have to say I don't really understand your post either. You say that PJ's argument is 'a great reason for 3-betting preflop' (in general? with 100bb stacks?) You then go on however to explain the advantages in this situation of not 3-betting pre-flop, especially given the stack sizes involved here, as if I hadn't read or understood any of the thread at all

Forgive me though if I'm just being a donk as I don't mean any disrespect to either of you

[PJo336]

ive been in these spots alot as well. Heres my toughts

CRAI- Prob my fav outside of the 3bet preflop, because most of those hands u named he will call with i.e. shorties really will call with A5 there, and ur only behind a select few.

flat calling flop bet- bad IMO cuz as u said, there are now 2 overcards which will make u feel very uncomfortable, and could give him the lead. Make him pay for that chance

again tho, both of these are using chips to test where u are and gain info, btu since he doesnt have many chips, its hard to get this info without committing urself.

[PJo336]

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also besides opening up a spot like this, it allows him to get away easily when u show aggression.

Say he had AJ and has whiffed the flop, he cbets and u push, he folds

whereas preflop u 3 bet, he pushes u call, 1010 holds up

lame example really just something to think about as if he has nothing ur prob not getting his whole stack anymore

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What?

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Take the time to read it again. It's a great reason for 3betting preflop. The issue I had here was that the stack size was a little awkward. 40+ BB is a little too deep for pushing pre and if he flat calls, I will see a nasty flop more than 70% of the time, i.e. at least one overcard and I need to get my money in first to act without knowing anything. Like this I was able to evaluate first. Since I found the board reasonably safe since there was only one overcard hand he hasn't hit anything the huge majority of the time unless he has a bigger PP, I think I could proceed. This is a rationalization in hindsight, of course. But I think it's interesting to discuss what the best line is in general.

Actually, I think this hand is a great example for playing a 40BB-60BB stack and playing a TP->all-in style.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually took some time to read it the first time as it didn't really seem to make sense. PJ seems to be saying that he'd prefer to get it all in pre with 55% equity (or whatever) than to c/r the c-bet on a favourable flop and take down a decent pot uncontested. The latter is clearly better. This is only one example, which he admits is lame, but he explains it by saying 'if he has nothing [and you don't 3-bet] you're prob not getting his whole stack anymore.' This also seems an odd thing to say, since if he has nothing and you 3-bet he will almost certainly just fold. I thought these problems were quite intuitively obvious, so I expressed my incomprehension with the somewhat lazy 'What?' rather than spelling it out

I have to say I don't really understand your post either. You say that PJ's argument is 'a great reason for 3-betting preflop' (in general? with 100bb stacks?) You then go on however to explain the advantages in this situation of not 3-betting pre-flop, especially given the stack sizes involved here, as if I hadn't read or understood any of the thread at all

Forgive me though if I'm just being a donk as I don't mean any disrespect to either of you

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i see what u are saying but my example was based on a semi decent hand that a 60/22 would likely go all in with preflop, such as AJ. You dont think hed felt AJ preflop? Also, as said, there is a HIGH percentage of scare cards coming up on the flop. 1010 has too many overcards that can come. If u flat call, not only are u playing OOP, and giving up the fold equity preflop, but now u are trying to fig out if a solo overcard hit him with no info.

i think a c/r on the flop is solid, and there was a huge 3betting thread where ev1 argued so many diff points that there is no real answer, im just saying IMO, in THIS situation 3bet>>>c/r flop

[bozzer]

grunch:

pf sucks hard. definate 3bet:

- you have a chance to get a perfect pot size for your decent pp
- its a 22% btn raiser
- hero sucks at playing shorties
- we are OOP

as played i like a fold on the flop. if you do that i don't know why you are questioning the turn - were you expecting to get a showdown for free and be good 33% of the time?? you obviously have a read that you are ahead somehow so suck it up and watch as he milks you dry. so thats a fold on the flop then.

[Genz]

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also besides opening up a spot like this, it allows him to get away easily when u show aggression.

Say he had AJ and has whiffed the flop, he cbets and u push, he folds

whereas preflop u 3 bet, he pushes u call, 1010 holds up

lame example really just something to think about as if he has nothing ur prob not getting his whole stack anymore

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What?

[/ QUOTE ]
Take the time to read it again. It's a great reason for 3betting preflop. The issue I had here was that the stack size was a little awkward. 40+ BB is a little too deep for pushing pre and if he flat calls, I will see a nasty flop more than 70% of the time, i.e. at least one overcard and I need to get my money in first to act without knowing anything. Like this I was able to evaluate first. Since I found the board reasonably safe since there was only one overcard hand he hasn't hit anything the huge majority of the time unless he has a bigger PP, I think I could proceed. This is a rationalization in hindsight, of course. But I think it's interesting to discuss what the best line is in general.

Actually, I think this hand is a great example for playing a 40BB-60BB stack and playing a TP->all-in style.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually took some time to read it the first time as it didn't really seem to make sense. PJ seems to be saying that he'd prefer to get it all in pre with 55% equity (or whatever) than to c/r the c-bet on a favourable flop and take down a decent pot uncontested. The latter is clearly better. This is only one example, which he admits is lame, but he explains it by saying 'if he has nothing [and you don't 3-bet] you're prob not getting his whole stack anymore.' This also seems an odd thing to say, since if he has nothing and you 3-bet he will almost certainly just fold. I thought these problems were quite intuitively obvious, so I expressed my incomprehension with the somewhat lazy 'What?' rather than spelling it out

I have to say I don't really understand your post either. You say that PJ's argument is 'a great reason for 3-betting preflop' (in general? with 100bb stacks?) You then go on however to explain the advantages in this situation of not 3-betting pre-flop, especially given the stack sizes involved here, as if I hadn't read or understood any of the thread at all

Forgive me though if I'm just being a donk as I don't mean any disrespect to either of you

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You are asking intelligent questions, so don't apologize. I meant to say that PJo's reasoning is great for playing short stacks that will get it in preflop with a wide range. And that is the basic assumption that governs this hand analysis because I stated it in the OP and PJo is acting on it. I had doubts though if stack sizes aren't a little too awkward for the play.

[Genz]

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- hero sucks at playing shorties


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Please teach me.
I'm not saying that I played the hand well. I just want to get max reasoning out of all of the reviews.

[bozzer]

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I was basically going to give up the hand on the turn,

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this is called calling-to-fold. it is bad!!

[Genz]

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I was basically going to give up the hand on the turn,

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this is called calling-to-fold. it is bad!!

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I know that. I was pretty clueless during the hand. That's why I posted it.

[bozzer]

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- hero sucks at playing shorties


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Please teach me.
I'm not saying that I played the hand well. I just want to get max reasoning out of all of the reviews.

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sorry didn't mean to sound like a rinse, just summarising what i thought you said in the OP.

[Genz]

Since the discussion seems to be over, here are the results:

I crai, he calls, shows KQhh, river is another K, he wins, I have mixed feelings about the hand.