This whole "don't call UTG raises" needs to stop

[FGators]

[ QUOTE ]
You should really reconsider taking goofy up on his offer. From reading this post it's pretty clear that reading and posting in this forum does you absolutely no good. If I were in your position I'd be glad to spend a few hundred dollars at the chance I could turn a marginally losing game into one that could net tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars a month.

Imagine if you could actually squeak 2-3bb/100 out of your 100k hands per month....

I wish I had your dedication to logging hands. I'll give you many props for that. If I had that same amount of dedication I'd be rich.

Just to stay on topic here.... UTG and MP raising ranges are going to vary and if you start grouping players together too much you're falling into a trap. I mix up my UTG and MP ranges a bit by adding in hands you wouldn't expect at times based on the table conditions and the type of image I'm trying to build. It's not as simple as "An 18/16 raises X range" becuase, if he's any good at poker, his ranges fluctuate based on the table conditions surrounding him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you always have to turn every post I have into a justification for me sucking?

Regulars I've talked to guys like PrinceI. have admitted that they pretty much open the same UTG/MP and that seems like what I've noticed from lots of 2+2 guys.

You're right though I am a completely braindead player that has no clues of any basics. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[CybrPunk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should really reconsider taking goofy up on his offer. From reading this post it's pretty clear that reading and posting in this forum does you absolutely no good. If I were in your position I'd be glad to spend a few hundred dollars at the chance I could turn a marginally losing game into one that could net tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars a month.

Imagine if you could actually squeak 2-3bb/100 out of your 100k hands per month....

I wish I had your dedication to logging hands. I'll give you many props for that. If I had that same amount of dedication I'd be rich.

Just to stay on topic here.... UTG and MP raising ranges are going to vary and if you start grouping players together too much you're falling into a trap. I mix up my UTG and MP ranges a bit by adding in hands you wouldn't expect at times based on the table conditions and the type of image I'm trying to build. It's not as simple as "An 18/16 raises X range" becuase, if he's any good at poker, his ranges fluctuate based on the table conditions surrounding him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you always have to turn every post I have into a justification for me sucking?

Regulars I've talked to guys like PrinceI. have admitted that they pretty much open the same UTG/MP and that seems like what I've noticed from lots of 2+2 guys.

You're right though I am a completely braindead player that has no clues of any basics. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the one who continually tries to justify you sucking. I gave up on bashing you quite a while ago, if you hadn't noticed, and have started to offer what I think are honest, serious suggestions to you. I'm 100% serious when I say that you should consider taking one of the many (good and reputable) coaches that you've spoken with up on their offer for a change. You were losing to the tune of 70+ buyins earlier in the year and, in the eyes of many people here, you haven't done much to try and adjust your game other than say "Hay guys, I run so badly and don't know what's wrong". Then when people offer honest advice you brush it off and use some excuse such as:

-stars is rigged
-I won a ton on party
-I won a donkament
-I asked 'x' player....

I've seen you ask a thousand times for help but you rarely take any of the really good advice to heart.... and that, honestly, is what frustrates me the most when I read your threads. You've had some great players offer some amazing advice and you haven't learned from it.

[UrInLuck]

Good post FGators, I agree with you.

[Jay Riall]

For once FGators I agree with you. Same goes for 3betting UTG opens light imo.

[tubasteve]

this isnt even that relevant because in the hand that starting this whole debacle, hero called a UTG raise 5-handed from the CO. the whole dynamic is different.

[Montezuma21]

wow i just posted a thread on exactly this topic in Poker Theory Forum:

If anyone wants to contribute, please do. i'll cross-post here rather than start a new thread in SSNL:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post12274984

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

I see strategy post after strategy post where a guy says, "I'm running TAGish around 19/16. I open UTG to $8 with 108 suited, button calls, BB calls." If you are in the blinds get over the phobia of always beleiving the UTG guy has a big hand. He does occasionally but a lot of the time squeeze that [censored] because you will be picking up the $8,the $8, and the blinds because he can' call $38 with a suited connector if he has a $200 stack if he has a brain.


[/ QUOTE ]

So we should frequently risk $38 to try to win $19? We need to win 2/3rds of the time to break even on this play, assuming not another penny goes into the pot.

If EITHER villain four-bets all-in with some sneaky monster that just woke up, we're folding and we're out $38. Even if villain is raising 18% of his hands, that's going to happen maybe 1/6th of the time. So of the remaining 5/6ths of the time, we now have to win 80% of the hands to BREAK EVEN.

If either villain smooth-calls, we're now in that incredibly unenviable position of:

1. Out of position
2. Huge pot
3. Mediocre holding
4. Opponent with a reasonably strong hand

Turning this into a steady profit is tricky at best. If we automatically c-bet we're now risking an EXTRA $55 or $60 with a nothing hand, and if we don't we're opening ourselves up to getting seriously outplayed postflop.

Three-betting light from the blinds is getting quite common these days, but I think a good player who is willing to either get very aggressive preflop or very tricky pre- and post-flop can completely neutralize the value of this strategy. Maybe the point of this thread is that most opponents aren't clever enough to adjust properly, but if we're talking about decent TAGs, I think they don't need to adjust much to destroy the EV from this move: tighten up a tiny bit and call down slightly light and you've got a deadly response to the light three-bettor.

[carrotsnake]

fgators, just by using your logic(I'm not actually gonna go into anything else cuz theres no point), we could definately 3 bet to 38 all the time and "he can't call with a suited connector if he has a brain", so Im' wondering, whats the specific reasoning people don't 3 bet to 38 then all the time ?

I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing, and while I sorta agree with pokey above, I disagree a bit too cuz brain villians almost never smooth call there, but whatever. I'm merely curious, why did you say this ? Cuz tbh, I 100% want people to call me with suited connectors when I 3 bet, no matter what I have

[keikiwai]

if utg has a big hand, you SHOULD call their raises, cause your implied odds are big

if utg has a wide range, you should fold, cause your implied odds are small

[carrotsnake]

IF UTG is BAD, you SHOULD call their raises,

if UTG is GOOD, why the HELL are you trying to outplay them so consistently