AJo from BB Short Handed - pf play - Page 3

bozlax · #21 09-17-2007, 01:40 PM

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ok. point taken. what do I know? absolutely nothing. you're right i may have just gone a bit over the top there.

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The point of my original post was that you seem to be thinking that you should have raised this hand pf because it made trip aces and held up on a flushy board, and that's not correct. Sushi is right, AJo is one of those grey-area hands in this sort of situation; it really doesn't matter whether you pfr or not, it matters much more whether you're going to spew bets postflop with 2PTK.

Sushiglutton · #22 09-17-2007, 01:48 PM

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As a rule of thumb: how much equit do you need in this spot to push it?

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I knew you couldn't answer that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. You are just guessing just like me [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

Absolution · #23 09-17-2007, 01:53 PM

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As a rule of thumb: how much equit do you need in this spot to push it?

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I knew you couldn't answer that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. You are just guessing just like me [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

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Are you talking to yourself or do you want an answer?

Fantam · #24 09-17-2007, 02:05 PM

I have just done a couple of quick pokerstoves.

I gave the UTG limper and SB a very wide range of hands, being any 2 suited, broadway or pocket pair. Then I gave the poster a random hand.

I then did the same thing, but replaced the poster with another limper with the same wide range as above.

What it showed was that against 3 limpers (or 2 limp + SB) that AJo only had a slight equity edge. The AJo was about 28% compared to the others at about 24% each.

When you gave the poster a random hand, AJo's equity seemed to increase at the poster's expense. AJo had about 30%, the limpers about 25% each and the poster about 20%.

So, it seems to suggest that raising pf is +EV in this hand. However, replace the poster with another limper and checking seems to become better, particularly as you are going to be playing postflop OOP, imho.

Now, could Smurph or anyone else please explain to me why bet/folding the turn to a raise is so awful after the 3rd flush card fell on the turn ?

The pot is not that big and OP's read are that the players at this table are very passive !

I agree that a pf raise would have been +EV. Nonetheless, as long as you bet the river, I dont think that you played this hand that badly n1_pete.

Sushiglutton · #25 09-17-2007, 02:52 PM

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Are you talking to yourself or do you want an answer?

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I want the answer. Sorry was talking to mysel. Now listen.

Sushiglutton · #26 09-17-2007, 03:17 PM

It has never been a question if AJo has an edge here. The question is if it's best to exploit that edge now or wait until the flop to have an even bigger edge. This is a very well known phenomena. But what we don't know and what would be extremely hard to calculate, is how to compare these two effects.

Understand me correctly here. I don't say raising AJo is a bad play. I say that there are arguments both ways and I don't know how to decide. No pf poker stove can solve this unfortunately. The best way would be to have a giant data-base and see what the break-even raising hand in this scenario is.

n1_pete · #27 09-17-2007, 03:26 PM

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The point of my original post was that you seem to be thinking that you should have raised this hand pf because it made trip aces

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ah, this is becoming clearer now.

boz - not at all, forget the trip aces, as soon as this came around i just felt it was weakly played pf and wanted someone to explain why it's incorrect to check. i'm simply not at that level of understanding yet. think i explained why i went this way - it seems a completely newb/dumb line to take. just one of those learning curve things i guess.

man, i can't believe this is going on. can we stop now? look! Riku has an interesting post about 44's!

Sushiglutton · #28 09-17-2007, 03:29 PM

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man, i can't believe this is going on. can we stop now? look! Riku has an interesting post about 44's!

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Making a post about raising AJo pf is like starting an avalanche. It's not an interesting problem really, but in some sense very fun to discuss. This will go on for another 2 weeks or so.

n1_pete · #29 09-17-2007, 03:36 PM

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man, i can't believe this is going on. can we stop now? look! Riku has an interesting post about 44's!

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Making a post about raising AJo pf is like starting an avalanche. It's not an interesting problem really, but in some sense very fun to discuss. This will go on for another 2 weeks or so.

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oh [censored] [censored] mother [censored] up her [censored] *bangs head repeatedly on desk* see you in 2 weeks then.

Ulkis · #30 09-17-2007, 03:42 PM

AussieBattler made a point some time ago that when adjusting PF play, starting to raise AJ's from earlier positions is one of the first adjustments one does when breaking away from hand charts.

I have started raising AJ (and AQ) earlier and earlier and although I don't have PT stats now to back it up, AJ has come more profitable for me and also easier to play.