RUSTY BROOKS WINS!! SnG TALK HERE

[ceegee]

i loosened up in the beginning and tightened up in the end. Made a good amount of steals knowing most of the field would respect my raise and most were tight.

[RustyBrooks]

Check this out:
http://www.rustybrooks.com/tmp/outhands.html

For those who gave me their hand history files, you can see their hole cards. The "x x" will be in red, mouse over it to see what they've got. It's not too late for others to send their hand history to me also.

I kinda threw the converter together so it's kind of rough. Some of the pot sizes may be incorrect although I think I fixed all the bugs.

You can go straight to a hand history using the link by the hand. Post that here to lead others to it. Here are the two discussed in this thread already:

Hand w/ me and Praxising
http://www.rustybrooks.com/tmp/outhands.html#3545571048

3 way confusing hand:
http://www.rustybrooks.com/tmp/outhands.html#3545594368

I have a feeling Ceegee has a hand I played in that he'd like to comment on [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Praxising]

Rusty, that's really cool! I was wondering why the hole cards are hidden at all, though? I mean, the ones you have.

I hope some others will either send you their Hhs or at least post some hands here. I am finishing up a job tomorrow but then intend to be all over this discussion.

So, about "stealing."

What's a steal? To me, it's anytime it's folded around so you are the first into the pot after the bring-in with a marginal hand hoping everyone will fold after your completion or raise.

So, I couldn't be stealing in the hand we were discussing here, beause you had called before me and obviously were not folding to a completion. You weren't stealing, either, because you just called.

I thought limping in was a good play on your part, though I don't imagine it would be generally popular. You were saying you had a hand, and if I'd had two bricks in the hole instead of one, I would have folded.

[RustyBrooks]

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Rusty, that's really cool! I was wondering why the hole cards are hidden at all, though? I mean, the ones you have.

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To give people the opportunity to reflect on the hand before finding out what's there.

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What's a steal? To me, it's anytime it's folded around so you are the first into the pot after the bring-in with a marginal hand hoping everyone will fold after your completion or raise.


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To me a steal is any raise on 3rd with a hand you figure to be worse than your opponents (your hand is far worse than an a29 btw, you're a 2:1 dog), where you are representing a bigger hand and hoping to induce a fold. Your aim there was to outflop me, bet 4th and get me to fold (right?). If you were getting into that hand intending to play to the river, then I guess that's not a steal, but I'm not sure what I'd call it.

You certainly don't need to be first in to steal, I steal all the time after 1 limper, particularly if he's a particular kind of opponent (got to watch for this in loose players): If he is someone who sees a lot of hands, but most importantly, RAISES a lot of hands on 3rd, that's a good thing to know. A lot of LAGs raise 20-25% on 3rd which includes and goes beyond most hands I consider merely playable. So, what does one of these players have when he limps with a 5 up? Unless he's known to be a limp-raiser this means he has an awful hand generally but he'd like to see a cheap flop. I steal against these people all the time. If I think a completion will get the hand heads up then I am in good shape to outflop him and take the pot. Obviously this is no good against someone who is going to call a bricked 4th with paint in the hole, so you need to know that too [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

One advantage you had in that hand is that you had a pretty good idea of my hole cards but I was guessing about yours. But also, I knew that, and knew you would try to represent a superior hand if at all plausible. That hand might have gone down much differently if someone unknown to me was in your place.

[SGspecial]

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Ceegee- I assume you are talking about the 3 way hand with myself, you and SG I posted above. After, SG limped and then called a completion and raise, I figured he had at least a 3 card 6 and was making a play. On 4th, he checked and then you took a long time and in the chat made a comment about me calling if you bet. I was suspicious of SG's check and then your actions/comments made me think you had a 4 card hand better than mine. I was happy to get the free card. If you bet, I might have folded here because I was afraid that SG was on a check/raise play.

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Well I said I'd comment on a hand or two, and since this one was a biggie I'll fill you in on the details. Kerze definitely wins the "hand reading" award here since I actually had 24 in the hole. On 3rd I was going for the limp/reraise type of play, but with a complete and raise by reasonable players it turned into a slowplay since I didn't figure to be ahead by much if at all. On 4th I was a monster fave with my wheel draw and thought ceegee would almost surely bet if checked to so I could get in a raise, but my jedi mind tricks didn't work on him. On 5th, BTW, I was still a small equity fave even if I was sure kerze had a 96 so had it been a cash game I would have raised there. In a fast action SNG, it was a more conservative call.

[kerze]

This is the hand that I said I misplayed on every street immediately after.

http://www.rustybrooks.com/tmp/outhands.html#3545555740

I tried to steal as 2nd last to act by completing (T7)5 with Rusty behind with an 8 and Prax having brought in with a 9. Rusty read my attempt for what it was and raised. I wasn't sure if Rusty had 2 wheel cards down or he was trying a resteal and I called (perceived mistake #1). Looking at it now I was right to call. I am getting 4.33:1 and if I give Rusty credit for 2 unique wheel cards I have about 36% equity.

On 4th I catch good with a 4 and Rusty catches good with a 6 and I check (mistake #2). I think I need to bet here otherwise I am advertising to Rusty that I have either paired or have a high card down. Rusty checks behind. At this point I should have realized that Rusty must have paired the 6.

On 5th, I caught a J and Rusty caught a Q. First to act I check again (Mistake #3). I think I really should have bet here based on the information from 4th.

On 6th, I caught a K and Rusty caught a 9. Rusty was now first to act and bet out and i folded (Mistake #4). If I think 4th and 5th thorugh I think I have to put Rusty on a 6 down with a wheel car. In this case I have about 48% equity and am getting 3.67:1

So on further reflection I think I misplayed 4th through 6th but I think 3rd was fine.

[Praxising]

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Did the other participants think I was playing supertight and if so did it affect your play any. There were a couple of hands in the midstages where I think I used what I thought was my perceived table image to my advantage.

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I was thinking about this and realized that at the beginning of the thing I was so mesmerized by watching poor Chips take all those bad beats I was hardly paying attention to anyone else.

As for playing tight, I folded, I think it was 567, on the first hand. Then I figured everyone but ceegee was gonna be playing pretty tight. I just assumed everyone was good, tight and had a caution sign over their heads.

[RustyBrooks]

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Looking at it now I was right to call. I am getting 4.33:1 and if I give Rusty credit for 2 unique wheel cards I have about 36% equity.


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I don't think you can use equity like this on 4th st because you're comparing immediate pot odds to showdown equity and there are too many cards that are going to make you fold 5th.

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On 4th I catch good with a 4 and Rusty catches good with a 6 and I check (mistake #2). I think I need to bet here otherwise I am advertising to Rusty that I have either paired or have a high card down. Rusty checks behind. At this point I should have realized that Rusty must have paired the 6.


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I found the check suspicious so I checked behind. In a cash game with a sucker I'd bet and see what happened. My best possible hand is too bad for me to check a 4 card hand against what I think is either a 3 or 4 card hand that you have. So I agree that you probably should have put me on a pair here. And that was the risk I took, giving that information away in exchange for seeing 5th for 0 bets instead of 2.

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On 5th, I caught a J and Rusty caught a Q. First to act I check again (Mistake #3). I think I really should have bet here based on the information from 4th.


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Yep, a bet here might really have taken it. I was waffling on 4th as to whether you missed a check-raise, paired 4th (or had a pair in the hole), or had a brick in the hole. It really is nice to be in position in a situation like this.

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On 6th, I caught a K and Rusty caught a 9. Rusty was now first to act and bet out and i folded (Mistake #4). If I think 4th and 5th thorugh I think I have to put Rusty on a 6 down with a wheel car. In this case I have about 48% equity and am getting 3.67:1


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A actually considered it possible you had a 3 card hand (I think we can count your T because our boards and hands are bad) and thought there was a very good chance you'd fold. I didn't necessarily think I was way ahead but I didn't see how I could be way behind. If you had 4 to a 9 I'd know by now. If you called I think I'd be pretty in the dark as to what to do on 7th.

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So on further reflection I think I misplayed 4th through 6th but I think 3rd was fine.


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I think 3rd is OK. Against an 8 and a 9, T high is not too bad of a holding with the best card up, and there's a decent chance I'd fold. I think my limit to re-raise there is probably a 3 card 9 with a good card up and if I'm not re-raising I'm probably folding (I might just call with some of my better hands though. But with the kind of bad ones, like my 863 here, I don't want to give you an extra way to win by just calling and folding to your continuation bet)

Maybe 4th and 5th are bad but you played a hand badly in the best possible way, if you think about it. Most of the mistakes I make involve raising at a really bad time, bluffing the wrong person, etc, etc, and involve me losing multiple bets. You lost almost no more than you would have if you folded to my re-raise on 3rd.

[Praxising]

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To me a steal is any raise on 3rd with a hand you figure to be worse than your opponents (your hand is far worse than an a29 btw, you're a 2:1 dog), where you are representing a bigger hand and hoping to induce a fold. Your aim there was to outflop me, bet 4th and get me to fold (right?).

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No. See, you have a certain way of approaching a hand, but I don't do it that way. On 3rd, I had no intent beyond getting the Q out and playing the hand with you. It was an opportunity to me. That is all. I was quite ready to fold the minute I thought my chances were worse than yours.

See, you never use all the cards at showdown, so, to me, the K was just a discard. Your 9 might not play, either. So, we each had two wheel cards. As I go through a hand, I discard the highest cards (if they are above 8) and evaluate the hands against one another that way. I don't see A2 as being a better hand than, say, 35. Not on 3rd. You can quote sim run stats until the cows come home and start paying rent, but I won't ever approach Razz that way. It just isn't part of my nature. Anymore than it is in your nature to do it the way I do.

I think one of the most valuable things to come from these discussions, is seeing how differently we all think about the game.

[RustyBrooks]

OK, well, we both come from holdem backgrounds. Let's say you knew someone had KQ and you had JT. Would you raise there? Would you consider your raise to be a steal, or do you just want to get the hand heads up and see what happen? After all neither K high nor J high is likely to be the final hand, so whoever gets the pair probably gets the hand. Maybe you do play holdem like that - but if I raise JT in holdem it's a steal or a move to generate future action.

Starting behind 2:1 just isn't a good idea, especially if you KNOW it.