Standard folds? - Page 3

mvoss · #21 08-10-2007, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I don't know [censored] actually. I just remember stox not raising 22-33 in this spot in a video, I think. IIRC he also looks a little bit at these hands in the database analysis section of WITHG (as well as A2o OTB).

Basically most of my comments are just regurgitations of his stuff. I just throw it out there and hope it still makes sense when it comes out of my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try taking a look at his preflop chart in WITHG, he actually recommends opening 22 in the CO [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I don't know [censored] either, and am also loosely following stox' recommendations. I think this is probably a close decision leaning towards a fold for most of us, but with tight players behind you I don't think raising here is anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

blackasthma · #22 08-10-2007, 04:22 PM

Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

mvoss · #23 08-10-2007, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah capping 22 when a seemingly tight/passive player 3-bets and trying to force him to fold sounds like an excellent plan. No wait it sounds like a massive spew. If you get married to a hand like 22 after raising it, outright folding it is definitely better.

blackasthma · #24 08-10-2007, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah capping 22 when a seemingly tight/passive player 3-bets and trying to force him to fold sounds like an excellent plan. No wait it sounds like a massive spew. If you get married to a hand like 22 after raising it, outright folding it is definitely better.

[/ QUOTE ]

shorthanded game, CO open raise, and maybe Mozart appears a little weak to this guy, who knows??? Villain holds any ace here. If he's that tight, then pressure him to fold by capping preflop, betting the flop and watching him fold the worst hand...

thepizzlefosho · #25 08-10-2007, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I don't know [censored] actually. I just remember stox not raising 22-33 in this spot in a video, I think. IIRC he also looks a little bit at these hands in the database analysis section of WITHG (as well as A2o OTB).

Basically most of my comments are just regurgitations of his stuff. I just throw it out there and hope it still makes sense when it comes out of my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try taking a look at his preflop chart in WITHG, he actually recommends opening 22 in the CO [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I don't know [censored] either, and am also loosely following stox' recommendations. I think this is probably a close decision leaning towards a fold for most of us, but with tight players behind you I don't think raising here is anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that opening here with 22 is fine with in a really tight game. I just don't think that I play in those games very often if ever. I also don't think that I play 22 or 33 postflop as well as Stox, so for me I these are probably folds pf so that I don't end up making bad plays in RIO situations. Not to say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

thepizzlefosho · #26 08-10-2007, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah capping 22 when a seemingly tight/passive player 3-bets and trying to force him to fold sounds like an excellent plan. No wait it sounds like a massive spew. If you get married to a hand like 22 after raising it, outright folding it is definitely better.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the player in question tends to give your cap credit and will actually give up on some A-high and K-high type flops, then the cap isnt bad. I've played against several pretty good TAGs that my best play with this hand was to CAP pf and rep a big hand hoping that they 3-balled me with hands like 98s or KJo and they'll give up on the flop or turn if they don't make a pair. It costs 1 more SB, but I think it allows us to play postflop much much easier and actually gives us a chance to win if neither of us improve on the flop. If I just call I pretty much have to muck a huge % of flops that I might still be ahead on.

I really don't thinking capping is such a bad play here. That being said I would rather muck pf, but that may because I am not as good in these spots as some of you guys.

mvoss · #27 08-10-2007, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that opening here with 22 is fine with in a really tight game. I just don't think that I play in those games very often if ever. I also don't think that I play 22 or 33 postflop as well as Stox, so for me I these are probably folds pf so that I don't end up making bad plays in RIO situations. Not to say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

[/ QUOTE ]

A game with two loose players ahead of us and 3 weak/tight ones behind us would be awesome, no?

thepizzlefosho · #28 08-10-2007, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that opening here with 22 is fine with in a really tight game. I just don't think that I play in those games very often if ever. I also don't think that I play 22 or 33 postflop as well as Stox, so for me I these are probably folds pf so that I don't end up making bad plays in RIO situations. Not to say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

[/ QUOTE ]

A game with two loose players ahead of us and 3 weak/tight ones behind us would be awesome, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it would be tremendous. but we are setting up a very specific scenario. I am talking generalities. Normally I don't end up in the perfect seat with two nits acting after me and a bunch of loose passives before me. And in said seat it is rare that all of the loose players decided to muck pf when I happen to have 22 in the CO. Sure this happens, and in this case I am probably raising a huge % of my hands and 22 is definitely in there, but don't you think you might be stretching your point when you have to set up the exact game against the exact opponents and give me a certain seat to make the point.

I already conceded that this could be +EV in certain spots, or if you play very very well postflop (like Stox) I just said I didn't think it was +EV for me or a lot of the posters on here. I guess we can just agree to freaking disagree eh? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

mvoss · #29 08-10-2007, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shorthanded game, CO open raise, and maybe Mozart appears a little weak to this guy, who knows??? Villain holds any ace here. If he's that tight, then pressure him to fold by capping preflop, betting the flop and watching him fold the worst hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mozart is opening with 22 in the CO this doesn't sound like something a weak player would do (sure he could have folded every hand for ½ an hour but we have no such info). From the stats so far this villain isn't 3-betting all A's here, no [censored] way, if these stats are a decent reflection o f his true game he'll have a very narrow range here. Have you played any short-handed lately? Once people 3-bet preflop, they don't fold! Generally I think any plan that involves spending a ton of money on overinflating a small pot and then making an opponent fold HU is just poor poker.

mvoss · #30 08-10-2007, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I already conceded that this could be +EV in certain spots, or if you play very very well postflop (like Stox) I just said I didn't think it was +EV for me or a lot of the posters on here. I guess we can just agree to freaking disagree eh? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure we can, my last post was directed at your "find a different game" comment. I was just nitpicking and wanted to add that just because we have tight players behind us this can still be a great table. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]