stackadonking a non-donk

[cs3]

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another thing is that "ch/r for protection" is kinda dumb because villain should be checking behind with his draws pretty often here, exactly because its such and obvious spot to ch/r.


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am in a different universe? At 1/2 on ftp every tag bets any draw in position when checked to on the turn.

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wow, if tehyre really betting nearly everytime i think thats a leak. on stars i see guys checking behind on turns pretty often with draws

[Fly]

lol, stars sounds like a gold mine!

[tannenj]

i like it

[Panthro]

(hope I'm not hijacking this thread)

Fly and anyone else who c/c's this turn,

what are you doing on the following rivers?

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Fly]

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(hope I'm not hijacking this thread)

Fly and anyone else who c/c's this turn,

what are you doing on the following rivers?

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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c/c
c/f
c/c
c/c

(by sometimes I meant rarely)

[yad]

generally i think this is quite a reasonable play. games have changed a lot, 9 months ago this would have sucked total balls but now it is actually pretty good.

few thoughts:

1. imo most of us don't pay enough attention to bet sizing. your flop bet is too small. it's not terrible in isolation, of course, but routinely betting $16 on this flop (when you have something and when you don't) rather than $13 will make a big difference to your winrate in the long term imo.

2. villain is very unlikely to have a better overpair. a set is possible, as are two pair, tp, and all sorts of draws.

3. overall this is a good flop for him to raise a wide range with in position. it's one of those flops where you are put in a really tough spot with almost all of your range if he raises. the fact that he doesn't raise shifts his range quite a bit towards mediocre made hands. this makes checking the turn good.

4. once you check the turn, c/r is fine imo. he will def call with some worse hands. i think c/c turn and lead ANY river (and generally fold to a raise, though this depends) also merits consideration. he is fairly unlikely to have a strong draw himself, but from his point of view you could be drawing, so he has to look you up on a river blank with a hand like 9T -- this means you can reasonably get 3 streets of value out of him (and if he does happen to have a hand that's beating you, this line doesn't cost you anything extra and may in fact cause him to fold the best hand if the river happens to be something really scary for him).

[carnivalhobo]

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1. imo most of us don't pay enough attention to bet sizing. your flop bet is too small. it's not terrible in isolation, of course, but routinely betting $16 on this flop (when you have something and when you don't) rather than $13 will make a big difference to your winrate in the long term imo.



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i used to vary my betsizes based on flop texture, but the more dangerous ones are the same ones people can raise with a wider range and you are still only hitting the same % of the time. so you lose more when you are raised, and also keep the pot smaller when you have less equity (more hands have more equity on drawy flops) then you can make you big bets on later streets when your hand improves or whatever, which gives you more options than if you make a really big flop bet.

[carnivalhobo]

results, he folded after some thought.

[yad]

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1. imo most of us don't pay enough attention to bet sizing. your flop bet is too small. it's not terrible in isolation, of course, but routinely betting $16 on this flop (when you have something and when you don't) rather than $13 will make a big difference to your winrate in the long term imo.



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i used to vary my betsizes based on flop texture, but the more dangerous ones are the same ones people can raise with a wider range and you are still only hitting the same % of the time. so you lose more when you are raised, and also keep the pot smaller when you have less equity (more hands have more equity on drawy flops) then you can make you big bets on later streets when your hand improves or whatever, which gives you more options than if you make a really big flop bet.

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it's true that the more dangerous flops are the flops that people can raise with a wider range, but I disagree on a couple points:

1. it's not true that you hit these flops the same % of the time. you hit them more, because they are drawy and so there is more there to hit.

2. betting closer to pot on these flops discourages people from raising quite as much with air and weak draws. this is generally a good thing for you.

3. betting closer to pot lowers the stack/pot ratio and thus allows you to get it in more profitably with good or great made hands against draws (either on the flop or the turn).

4. betting closer to pot also discourages them from raising as often with decent made hands when you have a draw. this is also obviously a good thing.