a concept borrowed from NL

[TheCount212]

Couple thoughts here.. first, what are you planning on doing if he reraises you? In a limit game, if he checked the flop and bet the turn that indicates strength to me. (All he needs is a ten in his hand, and I'm guessing he might have two of them.) So if he didn't miss a bet on the turn or river, sensing weakness is kind of a stretch, IMO. If he were weak or still on a flush draw he'd have c/c'd you out of fear of being raised. He probably thought that you were on a spade draw and was hoping against hope that the turn bet would make you give up (fat chance in limit).

[daveT]

My biggest problem with this play is that your villain is betting into what is going to be an obvious noose. If he didn't actually have the queen, he shouldn't be betting with a weak made hand, or he should be cold-bluffing. The reality is that you are re-bluffing here quite often. I would think that a good player would be far more likely to induce a bluff in this spot. This would also be the superior line in NL, IMHO.

However, It would be unique to attempt a check-bluff-raise here.

[TheCount212]

Except that, by checking the flop and betting the turn, where the bet is doubled in limit, looks to me like the villain has made his hand and wants paid.

I actually don't like the raise from the button either. The BB will call 2x with virtually anything here, so you're not gaining much info by raising, and if he has a strong hand you've given him a chance to conceal that by smooth-calling PF.

With A2h you're looking for the nut flush or a wheel. Whiffing on a straightened flop and having a raised BB bet into you after checking is an invitation to fold. I'd have taken the invitation and looked for a better spot.

[Josh.]

i'm kind of surprised that people don't think this is an easy value bet with even something as weak as 87 or 77. he shouldn't expect to get raised very often, and when he does it's usually a Q value raising. and he will get called very frequently by a worse hand

the point i'm trying to make is that i played my hand in a way that should tell him that i have some sort of marginally showdownable hand (due to the flop check back and turn call), and just about never a hand worth bluffing with. if my hand was hopeless i'd have either bet the flop, or raised/folded the turn. i really the check back then call line is completely inconsistent with a bluffing hand on the river.

when i raise, he just has no real reason to not believe me, unless this sort of thign (turning weak made hands into bluffs on the river) is commonplace, which i don't believe it is. but yeah i understand people don't thinka bout this stuff and just mash the call button when raised.

this was probably a bad example. i do think this can have some value against better players. when i felt like i was making huge strides toward the end of my limit playing days, i remember bluffing more than ever and it really working for me, so i guess i'm trying to go back and continue with that, even though i rarely play limit, or poker in general anymore

[danzasmack]

Josh say you don't have A2 here pf, say you have AQ/KQ/Q9/9T/AT

basically what hands could you have that you would check the flop

I guess if this post is spot on I should be checking back on the flop a lot more than I do now and with stronger hands than I do.

But that doesn't really make sense because if I am checking stronger hands on the flop vs. someone who c/'rs a lot of flops am I not missing value?

[danzasmack]

like why would i ever want to check a ten on that flop, is it ever correct to do that? - specifically in LHE

edit: maybe it's this specific example but i can't see, being the OOP player what hands you would check that flop with that call the turn that raise that river that might not fold to a 3-bet.

[TheCount212]

I think the point here, at least from my perspective, is that you are totally ignoring what HE is telling YOU with his actions. By checking the flop and betting the turn and the river he's telling you he has something. What is the board telling you? By not raising on the turn after raising PF, what are you telling him? With the way you played the hand, at the river I'd read your raise as a busted flush draw bluff.

Also, bluffing in LH is generally not advisable b/c it's nearly impossible to get someone off their draws or showdown when the price is usually right.

[Josh.]

[ QUOTE ]
Josh say you don't have A2 here pf, say you have AQ/KQ/Q9/9T/AT

basically what hands could you have that you would check the flop

I guess if this post is spot on I should be checking back on the flop a lot more than I do now and with stronger hands than I do.

But that doesn't really make sense because if I am checking stronger hands on the flop vs. someone who c/'rs a lot of flops am I not missing value?

[/ QUOTE ]


with those hands i have good equity. there's no real reason to be checking them becuase, like you said, if he's checkraising a lot, you're losing value and giving him a shot to beat you. i don't think the value in being tricky is worth it. you can still play a balanced game by only checking the A2/66 hands and the hopeless hands like 54. you just adjust by calling down sometimes with the 66 and A2 since the flop check should induce some bluffs and your range is generally very weak.

checking the flop with A2 gets me one step closer to showdown, which is something i definitely want, and against the right player i think it can encourage lots of bluffs, which is really the only way make money with the hand. imo it's a lot better than just betting and folding to a c/r when i could easily have the best hand

but again, some of my assumptions are probably off

[danzasmack]

But doesn't that take all the credibility out of your river raise?

[Josh.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the point here, at least from my perspective, is that you are totally ignoring what HE is telling YOU with his actions. By checking the flop and betting the turn and the river he's telling you he has something. What is the board telling you? By not raising on the turn after raising PF, what are you telling him? With the way you played the hand, at the river I'd read your raise as a busted flush draw bluff.

Also, bluffing in LH is generally not advisable b/c it's nearly impossible to get someone off their draws or showdown when the price is usually right.

[/ QUOTE ]


i don't understand why that means he has something. he could just be reacting to me apparently not being interested in the hand. that is how aggressive, tenacious limit players play

why would i have a flush draw on the flop? no one ever checks flush draws on the flop. a Q is a pretty trivial river raise, especially considering that everyone is saying that he won't fold a pair