Hmm, let's call this a marginal 87o hand

[DavidC]

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Your hand has no showdown value without pairing up.

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neither does his!

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Neither does a hand like JTs or QJs etc.

I think SD value is overrated.

[thepizzlefosho]

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Preflop whatever.

I can't fold this flop closing the action, call and fold turn UI.

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+1

[Scorcho]

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Scorcho,

It would be more helpful if you elaborated with some explicit reasons on why you think 87o is a bad limp. I personally like it because SB is a TAG, so will not often raise without fairly good hands, and if he does, you have position. BB is loose and passive, so BB will not often raise. And with a loose passive and maniac in the pot, you have good implied odds when you hit.

I don't like to raise because it costs more. It bloats the pot making the bad plays the maniac and the loose passive will make into not as bad plays. And maniacs love to reraise and bluff in raised pots.

Against a different player I might raise, but against this guy, and with the SB and BB as they are, I like a limp. Of course, I may be thinking about this incorrectly, but simply just saying "you are wrong" does not make it so.

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I feel it's fairly obvious which is why I didn't elaborate but I will since you asked me to.

While having position on a field is great in poker, having no idea with any reasonable certainty what 3 other players in the hand with you terribly sucks. Your hand is 8-high, which means any card from the top half of the deck on the flop is going to put you in a precarious position post-flop of not knowing if you're ahead or behind unless you flop two pair or better, especially in a situation like this when the flop brings not only an overcard but a flush draw too.

If the whole purpose here is to isolate and wrap your arms around the LAP to your right and milk him, not only are there better spots to do so but additionally, inviting 2 other players into the party isn't going to help your cause.

Specifically for this hand, Hero flopped mid pair, worthless kicker. His hopes of winning this hand bank on either him not only improving on the turn but also dodging whatever draws are out there, hoping his outs are live, etc.

Your only real strength in this hand is hitting the flop super hard which begs the question, "Why not just play any 2 cards in position to begin with?"

Just one man's opinion -- I'm not claiming to be an expert.

[DavidC]

Ok...

I raised, tag folded (*shrug* I guess he had 66?), the rest called. Turn was a brick I think, and it was checked to me and I bet, and I think everyone called again, but maybe only one player did. River was some card, and I checked it through.

I chopped it with my spewtard buddy, who also had 87o. Although it's kinda tough to say who played the hand better between myself, the tag, and the spewtard. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I like raising the flop because it gets me to showdown cheaper than three calls, and hopefully gives me the option of taking a card on a dangerous card (A, trump, etc.), and I'm a little bit afraid that if I don't raise now, someone could potentially move me off the hand with a worse hand, or if I don't raise and bet the turn, someone might stick around with a hand that beats me that they could have maybe folded.

I don't know how likely any of those things are, though, and calling certainly has merit. If the tag bets again, I'm assuming that I fold? If the tag checks, and the passive bets, I fold, and if the maniac bets, I raise, right?

[TheHip41]

do you really still suck at poker this much after three years?

wtf are you doing.

Fold PF, fold the flop. Next hand.

And no, raising the flop is bad. Even if you have the best hand, all 3 are calling the raise, and there are about 35 turn cards that will make your hand not good. And, you won't know which ones those are.

[Genesis]

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Your hand has no showdown value without pairing up.

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neither does his!

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That's irrelevant. If you both hold garbage the aggressor is going to win. If his style is to bet too much then you will fold and his garbage beats yours. Are you going to be bluff raising this 70/30/X guy? No, you'll be playing fit or fold and trying to 'outplay' him postflop. In reality when you both have garbage he is going to outplay you. It's all the other hands where you will try to make up the difference.

Regardless, after thinking about this hand some more I still don't agree with a preflop call. I don't think it's awful, but it's trying to push a very small edge against a player that we can find much better spots against.

[TheHip41]

i wanted to elaborate on PF

You have 87o. IF you raise, it's very likely the BB will call. The crazy will call.

You have 8 high, off suit.

The flop comes x x x, no 8 or 7 or gutshot.

How often is this guy

This guy's like 70/30/bluffspew

going to donk into you?

I'm guessing alot. If he donks a K53 board, good luck doing anything other than folding.

IF they both check, and you bet a K53 flop, what are the odds they both c/f? I'm guessing like less than 10%.

So now you have to bet the turn with 8 high vs a calling station and a maniac.

This hand is just awful, the fact you actually had the best hand isn't relavent.

If I'm the tag and I bet, I'll have Kx, a set, or a flush draw everytime. Good luck against my range with 8x.

[TheWunderkind]

preflop: just muck it, jba i guess you make more with KTo then 78o because: you can safely isoraise you will be often i a better spot if you hit a pair with KTo then 78o you will often win UI you can catch bluffs and semibluffs and you can make a lot more value bets. Compare it to 78o your only chance to win UI is to rebluff a spewtard wich is excessive spew until you have incredible reading skills, you will often loose to a higher pair,and you can make less valuebets the only better thing with 78o compared to Kto that its connectet but those few times you make the str8 does not outweight the losses imho +you have both blinds in. Im no mathematican and i have no proofs or stuff so its just guess. But if i would play it i woudl consider raising but the best is just to fold pf imho.

[jba]

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preflop: just muck it, jba i guess you make more with KTo then 78o because: you can safely isoraise you will be often i a better spot if you hit a pair with KTo then 78o ...

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go back and read what I wrote again I dont think we're on the same page

[TheWunderkind]

okay sry then you might be right, i dont and never really did playing with a preflop chart and i still think its a preflop fold and if you play it i would raise but not against this guy, the explaination is basiclly given im my previous post