A couple etiquette questions

[n.s.]

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I might be considered "rude," but as long as you are not colluding and playing by the rules, I wouldn't consider it giving anyone information for which they are not entitled.

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For various reasons, it was to my advantage for the SB to lose the hand. (We were on the bubble and he was getting short stacked, etc.) So when the SB checked the flop, I folded my garbage, giving the other player a better opportunity to take away the pot (which he did).

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Listen to yourself. Your example perfectly illustrates why this shouldn't be allowed. Even if it's technically allowed by the rules, this is angle shooting at best. What you are doing is essentially colluding with the third player. What if you were in last position, the middle position player was considering what to do, and you said "I'll fold if you bet anything here"? I don't see a significant difference between that and what you did.

[AngusThermopyle]

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Listen to yourself.

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Boober, note that

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in an online SnG I played,

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often has little or no concept of

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etiquette questions[/b]

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[n.s.]

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Listen to yourself.

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Boober, note that

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in an online SnG I played,

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often has any no concept of

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etiquette questions[/b]

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Whoops, I did miss that. Forget I said anything.

[bluesbassman]

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I might be considered "rude," but as long as you are not colluding and playing by the rules, I wouldn't consider it giving anyone information for which they are not entitled.

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For various reasons, it was to my advantage for the SB to lose the hand. (We were on the bubble and he was getting short stacked, etc.) So when the SB checked the flop, I folded my garbage, giving the other player a better opportunity to take away the pot (which he did).

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Listen to yourself. Your example perfectly illustrates why this shouldn't be allowed. Even if it's technically allowed by the rules, this is angle shooting at best. What you are doing is essentially colluding with the third player.

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Haven't you ever played in a donkament? This type of unspoken "collusion" is very, very common and is considered neither unethical nor in bad form. For example, when a short stack goes all-in on the bubble, two or more of the medium stacks will just call and check it down to the river, to maximize the chance the shorty will bust. There is an unspoken agreement among the medium stacks not to re-raise pre-flop or bet at the pot post-flop. So you are correct, my folding to a check is similar to this type of unspoken collusion, which is (or should be) perfectly acceptable.

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What if you were in last position, the middle position player was considering what to do, and you said "I'll fold if you bet anything here"? I don't see a significant difference between that and what you did.

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If you don't understand the difference, then you don't understand the rules. Explicitly communicating like that is collusion and is considered against the rules and unethical. It's similar to the difference between "announcing" I have AA or KK by making a big re-re-raise, and actually showing my cards during a hand.

[pfapfap]

The thing that gets me is you say leaving the SB heads-up with a big stack gives the big stack a better chance to win. Er, yeah, and the SB has more pot equity, too.

[bluesbassman]

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The thing that gets me is you say leaving the SB heads-up with a big stack gives the big stack a better chance to win. Er, yeah, and the SB has more pot equity, too.

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True, whether this play is actually good is a legitimate question. (When I made the play, the SB certainly thought it was bad for him.) My main point is that it shouldn't be considered unethical, since it's within the rules and it does change the equity of the hand, and therefore of the tournament also.

[Wongboy]

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Mostly I felt the other player overreacted a little unfairly and also tarnished my image in an instance I felt was relatively benign, especially after I apologized. When he continued I tried to joke it off (my table image is generally the fun-loving longhair fat guy) by saying "Okay, okay. I just learned this game today," and he replied "Go sell that bullsh*t somewhere else, don't muck your cards!" Not only was my image hurt, but I was genuinely alarmed that someone would take it so hard after I admitted being in the wrong.

The same fellow called a clock on me the very first hand I played in this PL game when it started four weeks ago (I c'bet my overpair and got check-min raised on a scary board, so I had some thinkin' to do with a short stack), so suffice it to say I don't think he likes me.

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Does anyone else move to this guys left and then instamuck the next time it is checked to them, or is that just me?

[bav]

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2) Where I play, the dealer will not proceed in this situation until all hands are face up on the table

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For cash games? Is this a room in NV or CA?

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Exactly. There is no Vegas room that makes you turn your hand face up in a cash game.

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Didn't Bellagio start requiring this in the NL2/5 game starting a couple months ago? I may not be remembering right.

[The DaveR]

I would consider it a reasonable advantage to have players to my right who routinely open fold hands.

[PantsOnFire]

1) Consider this. There are six people in a limped pot. The flop comes and SB checks with not much let's say a gutshot straight draw. The next four guys fold for no good reason. Now, the sixth guy in position is against one opponent instead of five and is much more likely to bet with a very light hand and drive out SB. Those four folders essentially told the sixth guy that they will fold to any bet so feel free to push SB off his gutshot. It is very likely that SB would have seen a free turn card had there been all six players left in the pot making a position bluff less likely by the sixth player. SB most likely got robbed of a free chance at the nuts. This is obviously an exaggeration of your situation but the principle is the same. I can understand why SB would get upset. It might not be a felony or even against the rules but it certainly can cause bad feelings.

2) In cash games, you don't have to show your cards during an all-in before the river. You can keep them down and then expose them according to the rules of who took the last aggressive action. I don't think you are ever entitled to see a hand unless the rules say it must be exposed. As for your example about having a set on the turn and putting the guy all-in, I'd have done the same as him. And on the river, I'd ask you to show your hand first, as per the rules. If I beat it, I show my winning hand and if I don't I muck. If I'm calling an all-in, I certainly am entitled to see that hand. The only way villain can get away from showing me his hand is to muck and forfeit the pot. I'd then muck right behind.