Losing Players.

[PBJaxx]

"They just do stuff cuz they have to, or they read to, not cuz they realize WHY to. "

This is SO huge. I have noticed this about people in every aspect of life. You can only make it so far in anything following a set of rules. As an example, in mathematics, people who learn "how" to perform an integral as opposed to those who learn "what" an integral really is have little chance making it past Calc II. Obviously, this is a very specific example from a specific field, but it gets the point across.

I have always tried to learn how and why things work as opposed to just learning how to get the right answer. If poker is important to you, I suggest you take this approach.

This is why TOP is necessary reading for any SSNLer, even though it doesn't appear to directly relate to our current game.

[/long, rambling rant]

EP, glad to have ya back and great post!

[lucky_mf]

I have to think extreme multitabling hurts a lot of players more than they realize. Its hard to adjust to things like table conditions and what sort of image you are projecting 6+ tabling (unless your really [censored] good). Every single time I've tried to play more than 4 NL tables results have been poor - there are just too many decisions and not enough information to make them intelligently). That said, I'm robusto when I play 3 tables.

Lucky

[Isura]

This is even more prevalent at higher stakes. Everyone has "tag" stats but very few play very well. That's why it's much more important to know how the regulars play certain key spots (mostly the big pots, or basic flop tendencies).

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 1.636.170 hands datamined on fulltilt nl200.

63% are losers.


The biggest loser is a 16/12 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I being leveled here?

[killphilNI]

I'm quite surprised at those results, FTP must be as tough as they say (so many losing TAGS at 100NL = wtf). I mean I just can't comprehend how so many people can play solid preflop and dump so much postflop. I know a lot of TAGs suck but if you're running <25 / >12 surely that should be enough to cover any other further ineptitude you have. Unless you love firing 3 barrells with A hi everytime you raise or playing for stacks with one pair against a nit who has limp/called preflop.

[matrix]

the preflop dick waving stats actually cover a lot of ground tho.

I mean that a 20/15/2 "TAG" might play a different range than the next 20/15/2 TAG.

Poker just got tougher for US players for sure - tho this seems to have made PArty recently degenerate and I am finding it more worth my while playing there with no RB than at other sites these days (sorry US guys but it's true)

This means that datamining and such is losing it's value somewhat. At least on the surface.

You can skim 2p2 and read a few poker books and watch the tv pundits and read a starting hand chart and you too can have 20/15/2 stats. But "TAG a" might call a raise with ATo in LP and lose a chunk when he's dominated - while "TAG b" knows that thats a bad play and folds ATo to a raise from EP but he raises too much junk UTG - whereas "TAG a" is an uber rock UTG and has a slightly tighter raising range than "TAG b" in LP so the stats look about the same (until you actually look through the played hands you have on both how you play each villain in certain spots is way different - and most HUD users never look at hands unless they played them)

NL poker is a postflop game - and players that take the time and trouble to find out what to do when "TAG a" raises UTG as opposed to "TAG b" won't usually be losing players - I think the poker boom - and the 2p2 book boom etc has let a lot of people think they play goot - when really they play bad and if you can work each individual villain out you will crush todays games - it just takes more work now than it used to. The majority of poker players at levels like $100NL just autobot from HUD stats - they're lazy and won't do this extra work and they are the ones losing money hand over fist to people who understand why you need to make a certain play and when to make it.

A bad player in todays games looks at the hud stats and thinks... .oO(zomg the games are getting harder - there are TAG's everywhere - where did all the fish go?)

a good player thinks... .oO(zomg there's ANOTHER fishTAG - they're everywhere - lets print me some more money)

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 1.636.170 hands datamined on fulltilt nl200.

63% are losers.


The biggest loser is a 16/12 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I being leveled here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is correct.

As I said a few posts back, I datamine A LOT and at all stakes I've played (micros -> all of SSNL now), if you look at the winners and losers column, it's 35%/65% or thereabouts Winners/Losers.

HOWEVER, at even 1.6 million hands, I'd be surprised if you could have more than 15k hands on anyone person, that's why he theory that less than 5% of players are longterm winners is still true.

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
the preflop dick waving stats actually cover a lot of ground tho.

I mean that a 20/15/2 "TAG" might play a different range than the next 20/15/2 TAG.

Poker just got tougher for US players for sure - tho this seems to have made PArty recently degenerate and I am finding it more worth my while playing there with no RB than at other sites these days (sorry US guys but it's true)

This means that datamining and such is losing it's value somewhat. At least on the surface.

You can skim 2p2 and read a few poker books and watch the tv pundits and read a starting hand chart and you too can have 20/15/2 stats. But "TAG a" might call a raise with ATo in LP and lose a chunk when he's dominated - while "TAG b" knows that thats a bad play and folds ATo to a raise from EP but he raises too much junk UTG - whereas "TAG a" is an uber rock UTG and has a slightly tighter raising range than "TAG b" in LP so the stats look about the same (until you actually look through the played hands you have on both how you play each villain in certain spots is way different - and most HUD users never look at hands unless they played them)

NL poker is a postflop game - and players that take the time and trouble to find out what to do when "TAG a" raises UTG as opposed to "TAG b" won't usually be losing players - I think the poker boom - and the 2p2 book boom etc has let a lot of people think they play goot - when really they play bad and if you can work each individual villain out you will crush todays games - it just takes more work now than it used to. The majority of poker players at levels like $100NL just autobot from HUD stats - they're lazy and won't do this extra work and they are the ones losing money hand over fist to people who understand why you need to make a certain play and when to make it.

A bad player in todays games looks at the hud stats and thinks... .oO(zomg the games are getting harder - there are TAG's everywhere - where did all the fish go?)

a good player thinks... .oO(zomg there's ANOTHER fishTAG - they're everywhere - lets print me some more money)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you say but I disagree with your conclusion. It's not that datamining is losing it's long-term value, it's that you must start looking at a LOT of different stats.

In tough spots, I usually glance over VPIP/PFR quickly, then go right to aggression factors, cold calling, showdown percentages, won at showdown etc, to make informed decisions.

[goofyballer]

When I get home from class I'll check out how those stats pan out with w/ my >1 mil hand database at FTP 1/2 NL.

EDIT: n1nj4, that 16/12 isn't me, right? Right? I have appearances to keep up!

[Keyser.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 1.636.170 hands datamined on fulltilt nl200.

63% are losers.


The biggest loser is a 16/12 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I being leveled here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is correct.

As I said a few posts back, I datamine A LOT and at all stakes I've played (micros -> all of SSNL now), if you look at the winners and losers column, it's 35%/65% or thereabouts Winners/Losers.

HOWEVER, at even 1.6 million hands, I'd be surprised if you could have more than 15k hands on anyone person, that's why he theory that less than 5% of players are longterm winners is still true.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really get what you're saying. Of course 63% of people are losers because that's close to the natural short term breakdown of winners/losers in poker. like, everyone can't win, amirite? as far as a the biggest loser being a 16/12, that really doesn't prove anything.

Also check out goofyballer's post in the new cheese thread about his datamining since January, and how no single player at 200nl on FTP has a higher winrate than like 4 ptbb/100.