WSOP Day2 a7o

[jason75]

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Well, an alternative vision (??) could also be to fold preflop. That's not what was done however, we can go all day talking about what could've beens, but that doesn't address the issue at hand.

If you want me to go around quoting your advice and telling you why it's not optimal, I could. For example, in sheets' thread you say to push the turn with TPTK on the T738 board. This is not only poor, but just plain retarded as it allows even the worst players in the world to play perfectly.

Better?

Again, sorry to be rough and I hope it's not too condescending, but you might be better off doing more reading and posting less for a bit.

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I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'm going to keep this short. Well, this is quite condescending and frankly arrogant. And I think you need to read my posts a little closer.

If you read my post to sheets hand, I was pointing out that we don't know how much villian has behind. I said "if he doesn't have much, then I'd put him all in". This is a qualified statement, meaning if I think I have the best hand most of the time, and the dude has few chips reamaining, then I think it's proper to put him all in. But we don't know how much he has, so I don't know what I'd do, and this is the point of the post. FYI -I noticed you responded to the thread without asking this question.

As for discussing alternate lines in this thread, doesn't that happen pretty much in every thread, regardless what specific question the OP asks? I think a discussion of OP's intention on raising A7o in MP (a fairly loose play) generated by a comment like "I'd fold this PF, why did you raise?" might be helpful.

I'm not here to "get it right", and frankly bristle at your elitism and arrogance. I'm hear to learn, to teach whatever I have to teach, and to figure new things out together with the folks here. You can't do that sitting on the sidelines.

So for each specific time you disagree with my comments, I urge you to respond in dialogue. I make dozens of mistakes in every session, am sure I've made errors in responding to posts, as everyone else here has. So I don't want to reject specific constructive criticism.

And as soon as I see it from you, I'll acknowledge it!! LOL!!

[olliejen]

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On a side note, the checked flop is intriguing. I think I like it.

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What exactly is it that you like about it?

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In hindsight, knowing the results you most definetly would have gotten c/r'ed off your winning hand had you bet.

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This makes no sense. What about the description of Villain or his play in this hand makes you think that he is C/R'ing this flop?

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By the turn he figures to just induce your bluff and get to showdown but on the flop he could have interpretted a bet as an obvious c-bet and thus had more courage to c/r his second pair.

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Why does Hero's c-bet necessarily have to be air? He raised pre-flop; don't Aces figure prominently into Hero's range? And why does Hero have to lay down to a c/r, if, as OP says, ...I think his range is pretty wide and an ace is out of the question...

[jlocdog]

Olliejen,

What I think is intriguing about checking behind with top pair here is that...

A) His kicker is crap and this will keep the pot small allowing a better chance that he an get to showdown.

B) He creates a good amount of deception by not betting his top pair, thus creating a very good opportunity to let SB hang himself on later streets.

C) Since most of the time (I presume) he will c-bet on the flop, by not doing it here represents usually air or a monster. When infact he has neither which falls into A and B for intrigue purposes.

Why I think he will get c/r'ed more often then not on the flop.....

I was thinking how I would play this hand I guess. I call light out of the blind and flop middle pair. Unless MP has an A here I feel I am probably good. The fact that my hand sucks (Q5o) makes me want to end this hand quickly. Also thinking that my opponent will c-bet a very good amount of the time PLUS the flop contains an A which probably reinforces that idea would make me go for a c/r here. If i lead out MP could easily raise and I would have to folds. Plus leading out here seem to let MP off the hook lightly as he can raise with any 2 with position and preflop aggression and I can't do jack about it. If I c/r here though I get to see what he is made of. 1st off, I have negated his position temporarily and put him to the test. Also taking into consider his relatively small stack size (and my very comfortable one) it would really be balsy for him to continue in this hand without feeling the sense of commitment. By c/ring him I represent a bigger A or a set or even 2 pair and he will have a hard time calling it. If he does, I think there is a good chance it gets checked through the turn and if not I easily dump.

Atleast that is how I would have played the hand if I were SB so I just thought it was a good possibility others saw/thought the same thing. Sorry if noone has or agrees.

Why does hero have to have air here if he c-bets.....

He absolutely does not. I never said that. What I said was that a c-bet could very easily be interpreted for just a typical run of the mill c-bet and get abused more with a c/r. Think about when you call a raise OOP and after the flop (especially one with an A) gets bet after you check. There is definetly a possibility your opponent hit the flop but there is also much more doubt then when bets are being fired on later streets. So my point was that SB could view the c-bet as weak since flop is an ideal c-bet situation.

Why does hero have to lay down to a c-bet....

As I did bring up earlier, the stack sizes to come into play here and a c/r can go a long way against our hero here.
Hero definetly does not have to lay down to anything but a very large man sitting on his face. I just figured that he might lean torward it as he doiesn't in theory want to play for his stack with this holding. Maybe he dooes I don't know. I never said he had to lay anything down though.

And as for him saying he definetly does not have an ace....

That is quite an assumption and frankly the only part of the post I did not relate to. That is quite a read to rule out having an A here. But if that was his read and that is what he went with, I am in no position to argue. It just makes me like his check on the flop that much more (now being so far ahead barring no set/2 pair) and only reinforces my other ideas throughout the hand.

Hope I answered your questions. If not by all means please interrogate more. But between you and 0evg0 this thread is developing a nasty streak. Try not to be so harsh on replies and rather question them with your own ideas.

[nlc315]

After re-evaluating the post, and reading others thoughts, I think you have to decide whether the villain is a moron or not. One person said, and it made a lot of sense, that the pot odds at the end for a call would be obvious...that the villain put the bet in there so the hero would be correct to call. I liked that point. It might be one of those situations though, where a really simple-minded player makes a great play for a really wrong reason. The flop check has been argued, and I could see it either way depending on your reasoning. If you're afraid you might be behind, you might check the flop to say the turn helped you with a bet, or if he bets, a raise. Personally, if I'm in a situation where I have a good hand preflop and I flop a MONSTER (I don't think this isn't one of those times mind you) I run what some friends and I call the "go-stop-go". Raising preflop because you have a legitimate hand, then checking the flop like you missed, then betting again on the turn like you're trying to steal because they checked behind you on the flop. It really induces lots of calls and even raises from the simple-minded folk. Plus, considering it's a tourney, most people don't like raising preflop, missing the flop and then getting called when you continue to bet anyway, so the "go-stop-go" has it's advantages with those monster situations. I think in THIS situation though, by checking the flop, if he bet the turn, it would give you a chance to cash in on that positional advantage by raising. Personally though, I've been tossing it around in my head, and I don't think it's a strong enough hand to sandbag on...I think you'd probably be losing EV. Others have pointed out that if he's loose, let him incorrectly call a flop bet, and I think, all things considered, that's a good read. Good situation though, what did you do on the river?