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#21
07-04-2006, 12:00 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, pushings an overbet...but it gives max FE and if you make a PSR, you pretty much gotta call a push and you also gotta stick the money in on all flops. So I think it might be a higher EV to push rather than a PSR, but not too sure really [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you want FE. I guess you are assuming that KK-TT type hands will fold, which I guess is good when your range is JJ-99. But a lot of tags will reraise AK-AJ type hands, so you can stack them or just push most low flops and take it down. This seems more +EV than pushing, even when you account for the times that they have a big pair. I don't agree that a reraise commits you to a push, just make it around 60-65. 
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#22
07-04-2006, 12:02 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] v a light reraiser im pushing jj, sometiems pushing all in. call with as for tt8899 im callign sometimes, reraising others, leaning towards call when im oop and reraise when im in position [/ QUOTE ] Why call when you're OOP and reraise in position? Isn't that kinda the opposite? Also I don't understand why we would push JJ. Worse hands fold and better hands call. I mean sometimes we would win 20 BBs but if just once in 5 times we got stacked... I'm so confused. [/ QUOTE ] no lots of hands we beat call. as to why im more likely to call if oop because usually ur reraise is getting called, id rather not reraise with 99 oop and have to bet into him and hope he doesnt bluff raise.
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#23
07-04-2006, 12:03 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yeah, pushings an overbet...but it gives max FE and if you make a PSR, you pretty much gotta call a push and you also gotta stick the money in on all flops. So I think it might be a higher EV to push rather than a PSR, but not too sure really [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you want FE. I guess you are assuming that KK-TT type hands will fold, which I guess is good when your range is JJ-99. But a lot of tags will reraise AK-AJ type hands, so you can stack them or just push most low flops and take it down. This seems more +EV than pushing, even when you account for the times that they have a big pair. I don't agree that a reraise commits you to a push, just make it around 60-65. [/ QUOTE ] That's what I'm saying. I don't understand pushing at all. Another thing I want to ask, what do you guys think is the most they will fold when you 4 bet?
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#24
07-04-2006, 12:03 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
cbloom, (or any1 really) so, vs some1 who you know can 3bet light but you have no idea on his frequency of doing it, what PP do you call/4bet/fold? [/ QUOTE ] How can you know he is 3-betting light but not have atleast a general idea about his range? Even if his range changes from say 5% to 8% reraises, this doesn't change your line too much.
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#25
07-04-2006, 12:07 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] v a light reraiser im pushing jj, sometiems pushing all in. call with as for tt8899 im callign sometimes, reraising others, leaning towards call when im oop and reraise when im in position [/ QUOTE ] Why call when you're OOP and reraise in position? Isn't that kinda the opposite? Also I don't understand why we would push JJ. Worse hands fold and better hands call. I mean sometimes we would win 20 BBs but if just once in 5 times we got stacked... I'm so confused. [/ QUOTE ] no lots of hands we beat call. as to why im more likely to call if oop because usually ur reraise is getting called, id rather not reraise with 99 oop and have to bet into him and hope he doesnt bluff raise. [/ QUOTE ] I don't have any experience in this, but I disagree with you that worse hands call a push. AK maybe and then only QQ+. I think players know that we aren't playing around with 4 bets (or are we?). I don't think I agree or understand your comments about how position changes your play either. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I really don't understand this.
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#26
07-04-2006, 12:11 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
Isura,
I might try out a few 4bets to 60 odd and see how I get on. I want the FE vs AJ/AQ/maybe even AK. I think that if I raise to 60, they mighgt push with hands that I'm either ahead of, or hands that would fold if I push. "But a lot of tags will reraise AK-AJ type hands, so you can stack them or just push most low flops and take it down. " Do you mean just call and push any flop I have an overpair on and try and stack them if I flop a set and fold to their cbet if I see any broadway? If this is what you mean, my intuition says its -EV, but I'm not too sure. Pushing the flop just looks ugly as no better hands call and all worse ones fold. I also have the problem that I'll get bluffed off the best hand quite often on the flop. What I mean about his range/frequency is that I'll 3bet 67s preflop SOME of the time, but certainly not 100% of the time (maybe 30% of the time?). Ditto a lot of hands like AJs/55 etc etc, so I know he can 3bet lets say a small PP or a SC SOME of the time, but unless i know his frequencies, which i would need quite a few hands to judge accurately I cant really know his true weighted range
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#27
07-04-2006, 12:14 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
Is it just me or does it seem like the solution to this is to just mix up every hand between 4betting, calling, and folding?
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#28
07-04-2006, 12:26 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean just call and push any flop I have an overpair on and try and stack them if I flop a set and fold to their cbet if I see any broadway? If this is what you mean, my intuition says its -EV, but I'm not too sure. Pushing the flop just looks ugly as no better hands call and all worse ones fold. I also have the problem that I'll get bluffed off the best hand quite often on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, pretty much. But I'm not afraid to sometimes play 200bb pots on the flop with 99 on K83 boards, etc.
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#29
07-04-2006, 12:32 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
What I mean about his range/frequency is that I'll 3bet 67s preflop SOME of the time, but certainly not 100% of the time (maybe 30% of the time?). Ditto a lot of hands like AJs/55 etc etc, so I know he can 3bet lets say a small PP or a SC SOME of the time, but unless i know his frequencies, which i would need quite a few hands to judge accurately I cant really know his true weighted range [/ QUOTE ] When people use randomization like this, it's actually pretty easy to figure out ranges. I'm really not interested in a weighted range, unless it's something obvious like big par/AX/SCs. They will 'sometimes' reraise 76s. But they will also sometimes reraise T8s. So just keep in mind that when they reraise, they will have some kind of speculative hand like 76s a certain % of the time. So I experiment with some ranges away from the tables, and try to come up with a decent default range against 2-3 groups of players (tightish, tag/lag, fishy).
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#30
07-04-2006, 01:42 AM
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Re: Common situation I\'ve found myself in a lot recently
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] v a light reraiser im pushing jj, sometiems pushing all in. call with as for tt8899 im callign sometimes, reraising others, leaning towards call when im oop and reraise when im in position [/ QUOTE ] Why call when you're OOP and reraise in position? Isn't that kinda the opposite? Also I don't understand why we would push JJ. Worse hands fold and better hands call. I mean sometimes we would win 20 BBs but if just once in 5 times we got stacked... I'm so confused. [/ QUOTE ] no lots of hands we beat call. as to why im more likely to call if oop because usually ur reraise is getting called, id rather not reraise with 99 oop and have to bet into him and hope he doesnt bluff raise. [/ QUOTE ] I don't have any experience in this, but I disagree with you that worse hands call a push. AK maybe and then only QQ+. I think players know that we aren't playing around with 4 bets (or are we?). I don't think I agree or understand your comments about how position changes your play either. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I really don't understand this. [/ QUOTE ] um people call all ins with a whole range of crap. ax kq kj jq jt small pps and lots of other stuff. altho i suppose if u only reraise aa and kk people wont give u action. as for position if i reraise and he calls i pretty much have to put my stack in on any flop, checking is terrible because he can bet anything and unless i flop a set i have to fold. when i have position i have the option of wherther or not to take a free card, hes also more likely to fold to a big reraise if hes oop.
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