Hand Ruling 5/5 NL game

[Rick Nebiolo]

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2. HOWEVER, this is a BIG per peeve of mine. I HATE the showboating A-HOles that hurl their winng cards to the center instead of placing them faceup in front of them like any other civilized 12 year old.

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Where do they have civilized 12 year olds? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[AThermopyle]

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2. HOWEVER, this is a BIG per peeve of mine. I HATE the showboating A-HOles that hurl their winng cards to the center instead of placing them faceup in front of them like any other civilized 12 year old.

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Where do they have civilized 12 year olds? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

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[Rick Nebiolo]

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Are you crazy? Isn't the rule that the card can be retrived as long as it is easily recognizeable? I may be wrong, but if the dealer put his finger immediately on the card in question then it should still be live...

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Just because it can be retrieved doesn't mean it has to be live.

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In LA it's usually going to be retrieved in this sort of case as long as it is 100% discernible.

Also from my read of the OP both cards were "slam-tabled" face up and one irrelevant card bounced, so effectively the best hand was shown (so in this case if the card went into the muck it wouldn't have to be discernible although the deck may have to be checked to see that it is correct (per some of my other recent posts).

Agree with the other posters that the showboat showdown slamming stuff is out of control, and when their cards aren't clearly shown and slide into the muck they deserve to lose the hand. But "showboat showdown slammers" are usually donks so it's really something I can live with. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[_TKO_]

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Also from my read of the OP both cards were "slam-tabled" face up and one irrelevant card bounced[...]

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The OP seemed to indicate that the showboater had Kxs, requiring both cards for the flush. Unless you're saying that a card other than the ones in the boaters hand was the one that bounced...

[Bulldog]

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First of all, no that it not the rule. In most cardrooms (rules can vary), once a hand is in/on the muck) regardless of recognizability, it is dead, period. The dealer should not protect the hand for the player. That is the players job, not the dealers.

Morons that showboat their winning hand is the equivalent of slowrolling in my opinion, hence my rant.

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I've said this before and I will say it again, the muck isn't this magic place where hands and cards go to die. You can argue about the showboat if you like.
But saying the muck is (or should be)a hard fast rule that the cards are dead once they touch is incorrect.[By Rule the Floor has the right to pull a hand out fo the muck]

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Where in my original post did I say that the card is dead once it "touched" the muck?


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First of all, no that it not the rule. In most cardrooms (rules can vary), once a hand is in/on the muck) regardless of recognizability, it is dead, period

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That just isn't true.

[Rottersod]

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...fish #1 is a black guy that keeps buying in for $100...

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I don't understand why his race is important enough for you to include it in a good or bad ruling thread. Would you explain?

[bav]

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In most cardrooms (rules can vary), once a hand is in/on the muck) regardless of recognizability, it is dead, period

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That just isn't true.

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I can't claim to have visited enough card rooms in the world to be able to refute the claim that most card rooms will rule it dead. But the few times I've seen this sorta thing come up, the floor asks the dealer (first) if he's absolutely sure he can ID the card, and if the dealer isn't certain he may allow the players to assist. Long as there's no serious disagreement and either the dealer or a couple players can ID it, the card is always retrieved. I don't recall ever seeing a floor come over and just flatly say "it's dead".

I have seen "it's dead" when a card went off the table. It's certainly a lot easier for someone to substitute a card if it has left the table. Cards that drop from sight of the dealer are always suspect.

[habsfanca11]

Let me add to what LVMike has said - it is a good habit to get into to ask about this specific rule when in a new cardroom. Reason being - many cardrooms are going to tables with an "action line" around the table. Usually this is a betting line, but not in all cases. In some cardrooms the action line also includes discards.

An example that is not worth it's own thread but is worth mentioning from this weekend. Live 3/6 LHE full ring - gets down to heads up on the river. 3 seat bets the river and the 7 seat calls. 3 seat turns up her hand, 6 seat (not in the hand) calls out "straight" and the 7 seat tosses in her hand face down over the action line. It touches no other cards but it's so close to having touched the board that many people believe it did touch. 7 seat realizes that the other hand is in fact not a straight - reaches out and retrieves her hand turns it over and shows the winning hand of 2 pair. Plenty of lessons here for everyone about controlling your hand, one person to a hand etc. etc. but my point here is it is a good idea to know what constitiues a mucked hand in the room you're playing. It may be (as in the case of this example) that any hand which crosses the "action line" is dead. Given the rule, 7 seat was in a difficult situation to even argue that she was trying to table her hand as the cards were thrown in face down. Floor rules 7 seats' hand dead and the pot was awarded to seat 3. After the ruling the 3 seat split the pot with 7 and the game continued.

It's a great rule for catching slamming/flipping/throwing showboats - but make sure you don't get caught.

End of advice.

[RR]

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Let me add to what LVMike has said - it is a good habit to get into to ask about this specific rule when in a new cardroom. Reason being - many cardrooms are going to tables with an "action line" around the table. Usually this is a betting line, but not in all cases. In some cardrooms the action line also includes discards.

An example that is not worth it's own thread but is worth mentioning from this weekend. Live 3/6 LHE full ring - gets down to heads up on the river. 3 seat bets the river and the 7 seat calls. 3 seat turns up her hand, 6 seat (not in the hand) calls out "straight" and the 7 seat tosses in her hand face down over the action line. It touches no other cards but it's so close to having touched the board that many people believe it did touch. 7 seat realizes that the other hand is in fact not a straight - reaches out and retrieves her hand turns it over and shows the winning hand of 2 pair. Plenty of lessons here for everyone about controlling your hand, one person to a hand etc. etc. but my point here is it is a good idea to know what constitiues a mucked hand in the room you're playing. It may be (as in the case of this example) that any hand which crosses the "action line" is dead. Given the rule, 7 seat was in a difficult situation to even argue that she was trying to table her hand as the cards were thrown in face down. Floor rules 7 seats' hand dead and the pot was awarded to seat 3. After the ruling the 3 seat split the pot with 7 and the game continued.

It's a great rule for catching slamming/flipping/throwing showboats - but make sure you don't get caught.

End of advice.

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I would never play in a room with such a rule. It serves no useful purpose and is jsut a way for someoen to try to win without the best hand.

[lmcjaho]

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a jacka$$ slow roller story http://www.allvegaspoker.com/trip_detail_590.html

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ummm, okay - I read that whole thing and the closest I saw to a slow-roll was a one second pause before turning over his rockets to the other guy's KK... One-second pause doesn't quite equate to jack@ss slowroll in my books...