109s: Battle of the blinds w/ 44

[bluefeet]

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If I raise and he shoves I'm calling.

A lot of flops I'll c-bet.

Particularily favorable ones I'll check shove.

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bigt in the house! sup t?

...yeah, i was talking about you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

your plan for matched or greater aggression of course makes OP's line not much of an arguement between us. i just can't imagine flipping PF for my 15bb's at this stage of the game w/ this hand.

[bigt439]

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If I raise and he shoves I'm calling.

A lot of flops I'll c-bet.

Particularily favorable ones I'll check shove.

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bigt in the house! sup t?

...yeah, i was talking about you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

your plan for matched or greater aggression of course makes OP's line not much of an arguement between us. i just can't imagine flipping PF for my 15bb's at this stage of the game w/ this hand.

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How you doin bluefeet... long time no speak... shoot me a pm and let me know how things are going...

The thing about that last statement of yours regarding not wanting to flip is that you're right, we don't want to. However, we don't know we are going to be flipping when it gets folded to us and we put in 225 or so more chips with a raise. Now when we get shoved on we're getting pretty nice odds for this flip. But don't worry, I really don't think we get shoved on a lot here.

[TravestyFund]

I never hesitate to raise PF. I think youre flop bet is too weak. I commit myself with a bet on the flop to where button also knows Im committed (~500). I like a check raise more than a sm lead, but still feel like you achieve the most FE by leading 4/5 pot. If villain still shves you obv call.

[AlwaysWrong]

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All very enlightening - sincerely.

As 1st of the 'hell no, don't raise' donks [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], please share with me if you will, the oober standard line here.

Please keep in mind that...

a) BB is a monster stack, and likes to use them
b) we hold 17bb's
c) we have a pair of 4's


What do you do when he pushes back PF? Are you getting the rest of your chips in at this stage of the game...as at least one other was actually hoping for?

What is your plan for most every single flop but this one, when we don't have an OESD (or a set)?

Thanks!

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Obviously this is opponent dependant. Opponent is a multitabling regular. It doesn't automatically follow that he's going to test us with a huge range of hands. So (a) isn't a given. However, even if (a) is true, it doesn't follow that completing is good.

Completing is just asking for trouble against a good player. If the big blind was me, the big blind would raise about 2/3rds to 80% of the time you open-completed there, unless we had a particular history (ie. I thought you'd know this). So then where are you? As someone above said, you're pretty much pushing preflop now. This isn't the worst, but you probably would have rather just raised to begin with so you could have either taken the blinds or seen the flop with initiative.

So you raise and get called. The one thing you're not doing is check-folding. So that leaves:

(1) Bet, fold to a raise
(2) Bet, push over a raise
(3) Check, push over a bet

You take line (1) on flops that are pretty bad for you - ie. two high cards on the flop. Depending on opponent there could be quite a few other flops you take this line on.

You take line (2) when you flop either something like we did, or perhaps something like K22 where we expect the BB to make a move fairly often.

You take line (3) pretty much with the nuts, or to mix it up a little. [I'd take line (3) far less than line (2), and even with a set I'd normally take line (2).]

[MUD]

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i think calling preflop is easily the best option. on that flop i'd probably fire out a 2/3 pot bet and fold to his raise.

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Just to make a point about how bad a complete is if you expect him to raise at least 50% of the time and we're even EV when they don't raise.

Q. What range would he have to call with to make an open push worse?

Answer in an hour. (Or you guys can try to figure it out with SNGPT before then)

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Well since nobody wants to guess I give you guys the answer.

HE WOULD HAVE TO BE DEALT 3 CARDS FOR THERE TO BE ANY RANGE.


EV of complete/fold to raise and even EV when he doesn't raise(which is generous considering he is aggressive and has position)= $96.96

EV when villian has worst calling range for HERO(38% Karlson or 22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q6s+,JT,J9s+,T9s)= $98.75

66+,ATs,AJ+ range = $100.72

You could feed a kid in Ethiopia for a month on what you make from pushing here vs. playing it the way you guys would

[curtains]

few options:

1. Allin preflop
2. Call preflop
3. Make standard raise preflop. (raise to 250-300)

I never move allin, but its definitely somewhat +EV and maybe the best play here. Calling I do a lot, standard raise depends on opponent, sometimes I'll do that too. I would not raise to like 250-300 here because the guy has 9 billion chips and is going to call too often and leave us in a really unpleasant postflop situation.

On the flop I would almost always just check, its not a great flop for you....I'd like to see what happens. Your bet of 350 is going to leave you in a difficult spot.

[MUD]

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I never hesitate to raise PF. I think youre flop bet is too weak. I commit myself with a bet on the flop to where button also knows Im committed (~500). I like a check raise more than a sm lead, but still feel like you achieve the most FE by leading 4/5 pot. If villain still shves you obv call.

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This is probably the thing I worry about the most with hands like these. If I lead for 4/5 pot when on a draw but not with 99+( I like CB size bets with these hands to let them think I might fold to an allin) then I am incredibly easy to read and he can play against me profitably with any 2 cards. Also I feel I must CB any 2 I'm raising( I think I might be wrong on this) so I like the 375-400 bet for this reason

The allin is more interesting to me.

Does anybody use a mixed strategy of allins and CBs when playing from the blinds with 12-20 BBs?

[bluefeet]

whata coinkie-dink. i was JUST searching your "+re +sb" posts for the last year, before PM'ing you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


...back to my previous [misguided perhaps] assertions amongst the others: with his stack, i just don't see 44 having any value post - when taking the 'pot building' line (assuming he calls at least as much as he folds). we will always be operating in the dark...putting a relatively healthy stack at high risk.

[MUD]

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few options:

1. Allin preflop
2. Call preflop
3. Make standard raise preflop. (raise to 250-300)

I never move allin, but its definitely somewhat +EV and maybe the best play here. Calling I do a lot, standard raise depends on opponent, sometimes I'll do that too. I would not raise to like 250-300 here because the guy has 9 billion chips and is going to call too often and leave us in a really unpleasant postflop situation.

On the flop I would almost always just check, its not a great flop for you....I'd like to see what happens. Your bet of 350 is going to leave you in a difficult spot.

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Ya curtains I agree with you it might be the best play now. Are there certain opponents you would already be in allin or fold mode in situations like this?

As I looked at the numbers I'm starting to think I don't go allin enough with 10-20 BBs from the SB against agressive oppenents.

Allin or fold looks to be the best strategy against tough oppenents in this situation. I could see a mix of limp reraises and standard raises might be the most profitable against really aggressive oppenents

[b33nz]

fold that flop......damn