TT hand from a 109

[bigballz]

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dude you are way overthinking this. A 500 bet leaves you committed and everyone else knows that so they are probobly going to play it as if you pushed anyways. If anything though, it looks scarier and may fold some hands that you want calling your push.

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A 500 bet does not leave me committed if I don't have a hand. 500 can look like a c-bet here. I've still got 8.5 BBs if I fold.

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So now you are going to let A8 push you off your hand?

[supercomputer]

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A 500 bet does not leave me committed if I don't have a hand. 500 can look like a c-bet here. I've still got 8.5 BBs if I fold.

[/ QUOTE ] 1650-300-800<>850! This would have all been clearer if this hand were converted properly. So you had 1950 chips when the hand started and not 1650?

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No. You're adding wrong. The pot bet was 500, not 800.

I can't get the converter to work with my pokerroom HHs.

[supercomputer]

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dude you are way overthinking this. A 500 bet leaves you committed and everyone else knows that so they are probobly going to play it as if you pushed anyways. If anything though, it looks scarier and may fold some hands that you want calling your push.

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A 500 bet does not leave me committed if I don't have a hand. 500 can look like a c-bet here. I've still got 8.5 BBs if I fold.

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So now you are going to let A8 push you off your hand?

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Get serious.

I meant that to villain it would not look like I'm committed. He could reasonably think there was a chance for me to fold at some point. For instance if I was stealing with KQ and now made a desparate c-bet to take it down. I'm just responding to the point that villain is playing it as if I am pot-committed with my flop bet.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

You're underestimating how vulnerable your hand is to this flop.

Sure, you're ahead 90% of the time, but almost half the deck is overcards or flush cards. You have to shove the flop.

Again, a hand like QQ or KK could be played differently. Not TT.

[supercomputer]

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You're underestimating how vulnerable your hand is to this flop.

Sure, you're ahead 90% of the time, but almost half the deck is overcards or flush cards. You have to shove the flop.

Again, a hand like QQ or KK could be played differently. Not TT.

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Villain doesn't have half the deck. He's got a specific hand in the range I listed. I don't know WHICH one he has. But that is not an issue because I'm pushing the turn regardless. So I never have to worry about "did he hit it?"

Unless I'm missing something, the math is clear about this: If he has a hand that I have beat, and will fold to a push, but will call 500, then 500 is the correct play.

No?

[AMT]

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Looks fine. Agreed that you should not just push the flop even though you are comitting yourself, because pushing may cause some folds that you don't want.

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your stack is barely bigger than the pot. What is calling 500 that isn't calling a push????? If anything, a push would get more calls IMO.

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This is really the best argument for pushing. But I think there are definitely some hands that would call 500 but not a push. Remember there are 2 players, so for button to call a push he has to worry about BB. Is A9 calling a push (probably)? What about AK?

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A9, probably, A K, depends how big of a donk.

oh, and i like pushing flop. most villains read this as a draw or some hands that wants them to go away. if you get called by some overpair or set, so be it. the problem is, you cant shut down after betting 500 on the flop, and IF you think someone might call 500 but not an all in, its even more of an argument for pushing the flop. you either need to give up on the flop (which is bad IMO) or push flop

[AMT]

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You're underestimating how vulnerable your hand is to this flop.

Sure, you're ahead 90% of the time, but almost half the deck is overcards or flush cards. You have to shove the flop.

Again, a hand like QQ or KK could be played differently. Not TT.

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Villain doesn't have half the deck. He's got a specific hand in the range I listed. I don't know WHICH one he has. But that is not an issue because I'm pushing the turn regardless. So I never have to worry about "did he hit it?"

Unless I'm missing something, the math is clear about this: If he has a hand that I have beat, and will fold to a push, but will call 500, then 500 is the correct play.

No?

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no, youre missing the point. goggles is saying that half of all turn cards are going to scare you. if youre going to push the turn, you want to shut out the hands that you will be scared of when the turn card falls. you should be HAPPY to take down the pot on the flop, and your best chance of doing this is by shoving the flop.

[supercomputer]

AMT,

Why do I want someone to fold when they will call 500 with incorrect odds, and if they have just a pair or overcards - badly incorrect odds?

No turn card is going to scare me, as I am pushing any turn. It will scare me if they hit, but I am willing to risk my tournament on a +EV situation.

Just to make it simple, let's say villain has A9. He's worse than an 8-1 dog to hit the turn card and dodge a river 10. You would rather him fold than call $500?

[QUADS4444]

I think you are overlooking the possibility that they may both call. One might have the Ax flush draw and the other perhaps QJ or JT. Now almost half the deck kills your hand.

I prefer the push. I wouldn't mess around with it.

Furthermore there is always the danger that the turn will give them added outs. A hand like A7s could hit a 5,6,7, T J for extra outs, making the turn call correct.

[AMT]

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AMT,

Why do I want someone to fold when they will call 500 with incorrect odds, and if they have just a pair or overcards - badly incorrect odds?

No turn card is going to scare me, as I am pushing any turn. It will scare me if they hit, but I am willing to risk my tournament on a +EV situation.

Just to make it simple, let's say villain has A9. He's worse than an 8-1 dog to hit the turn card and dodge a river 10. You would rather him fold than call $500?

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Turn (1950) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (doh!)

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thats why. you answer your own question in the original post. you hate the turn (as there are SO many draws out there on the flop, not to mentioned overpairs to your overpair), you commit yourself with a 500 bet on the flop. if you KNOW youre pushing any turn, its a mistake to not push the flop. he may very well call with many of these draws, and i think youd much rather double through as a favorite (or get bad beat) then letting him catch up on the turn. also the image of a push is more scared on the flop than that of a lead of 500, meaning i think a lot of hands that youre beating still call you. no matter what you do, a hand that beats you isnt going to fold, so you might as well push this flop and stay ahead of villains range. if you push this turn youre more likely to be behind in the hand, as you might be with many turn cards.