More revelations abt atrocities in Iraq

[Utah]

ummm.....when is an article my the ultra liberal Molly Ivins a "revalation"?

Also, even if the allegations are true so what? This is the nature of war - good wars or bad wars. There will always be bad soldiers and there will always be soldiers that are murderers.

A few deaths among 100,000+ soldiers is statistically irrelevant.

[mosta]

One can view it as an "incident" that of course is aberrant. And then look to weed out the bad eggs.

Or one can view it as a symptom and result of an entire enterprise that is rotten to its core. You send our youths abroad to undertake great risk and sacrifice for a noble cause and they slowly learn that: their endeavor was constructed on false assertions; their mission was underplanned and underequipped, short of personnel, many of whom now have had their arms twisted to keep them their well beyond their promised time frame; their "enemy" is not identifiable, it mixes among their "friends" and the "friends" seem if anything more sympathetic to the guerrillas--so they don't have a meaningful objective they can attain against an enemy they can confront and they're not even sure why they're there in the first place. Everything about this situation is aligned to lead someone either to lose it and go nuts, or fall into an extremist view that "far as I'm concerned every one of them is a 'terrorist.' "

That's why it becomes a political issue to hold against the entire administratoin. I'm not gleeful about it. I don't see any obvious way to make it better. Suddenly evacuating is likely to lead to another kind of disaster, for which this country would then bear blame also. If I had to make up an answer I'd send in a lot more troops with a short term plan of partitioning the country.

Oh but wait this is an isolated incident, right? Like abu graihb. except they keep coming up with nmore and more--torture at another prison, another massacre in another city. and again and again. hmm, maybe there's even more than we're getting in the media...

what I do relish is that several high level people should go to hell for all this.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
One can view it as an "incident" that of course is aberrant. And then look to weed out the bad eggs.

Or one can view it as a symptom and result of an entire enterprise that is rotten to its core. You send our youths abroad to undertake great risk and sacrifice for a noble cause and they slowly learn that: their endeavor was constructed on false assertions; their mission was underplanned and underequipped, short of personnel, many of whom now have had their arms twisted to keep them their well beyond their promised time frame; their "enemy" is not identifiable, it mixes among their "friends" and the "friends" seem if anything more sympathetic to the guerrillas--so they don't have a meaningful objective they can attain against an enemy they can confront and they're not even sure why they're there in the first place. Everything about this situation is aligned to lead someone either to lose it and go nuts, or fall into an extremist view that "far as I'm concerned every one of them is a 'terrorist.' "

That's why it becomes a political issue to hold against the entire administratoin. I'm not gleeful about it. I don't see any obvious way to make it better. Suddenly evacuating is likely to lead to another kind of disaster, for which this country would then bear blame also. If I had to make up an answer I'd send in a lot more troops with a short term plan of partitioning the country.

Oh but wait this is an isolated incident, right? Like abu graihb. except they keep coming up with nmore and more--torture at another prison, another massacre in another city. and again and again. hmm, maybe there's even more than we're getting in the media...

[/ QUOTE ] I think your argument is well constructed and I think you make some very good points. However, can you please tell me a war that was better run. Also, you please point to a war where there was less civilian tragedy. Can you point to was where less invading soldiers died? Can you point to a war with less prisoner abuse?

[ElliotR]

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Also, even if the allegations are true so what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for saying this and giving Redbean the opportunity to demonstrate his principles. Redbean?

[Copernicus]

"maybe there's even more than we're getting in the media..."

Yes the media is a model of restraint with these stories.

[ElliotR]

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However, can you please tell me a war that was better run. Also, you please point to a war where there was less civilian tragedy. Can you point to was where less invading soldiers died? Can you point to a war with less prisoner abuse?

[/ QUOTE ]

Operation Urgent Fury, 1983. Next question?

[Utah]

hmmm.....was that a war or an operation?????

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, even if the allegations are true so what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for saying this and giving Redbean the opportunity to demonstrate his principles. Redbean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. I don't think I stuttered and I made it chrystal clear what should happen if these allegations prove true.

If an American soldier deliberately murdered non-combatant children, no matter where or when or what country, then they should be turned over to that country for prosecution, and for all I hope, they would be strung up by their nuts and batted around like a pinata in Baghdad Town Square.

Just the same as if an American soldier stateside walks into a home in Hometown, Ohio and shoots up a room full of kids, I'm gonna want to see his ass stretch out on Mr. Sparky and nod in agreeance when they flip the switch.

The American military, by and large, is made up of some of the most heroic and patriotic, selfless and loyal individuals you will ever know.

BUT...at the same time, they have their fair share of ignorant wackos, and criminals, and kids that just ain't got no damn sense and don't know how to keep control of themselves. When they identify themselves by doing something stupid like this, they need to be dealt with swiftly, and firmly, of for nothing else than so the entire population of Hippie Planet doesn't throw a Atocity-palooza festival to celebrate all servicemen as murderers and screem "Nanny nanny boo boo" at republicans in their explotations of the true victims of this crime.

Those few, when identified, are punished, and removed. But it is ridiculous to take the actions of a small minority of bad apples and project it upon the entirety of the population of the military and by extension the administration as a result.

This is a criminal issue between a handful or alleged murderers, and the victims of familes murdered. It is most definately not a Republican versus Democrat issue, and to see Dems jump in glee over the "new info" they have to hold over opposition heads is sickening.

War is horrific, but that aside, it doesn't excuse deliberate and cold-blooded murder of non-combatant children. But again, I place responsibility for those actions, if proven true, on who they belong...the guilty parties...not on who I *want* to be responsible, or in who I *want* to look bad as a result, as some of you do towards the administrations and other political party.

This is a chrystal clear issue of right vs wrong. Not right vs left.

It shouldn't be a political issue, and those who desperately want to make it one just to exploit it to smear republicans should be ashamed of themselves.

[ElliotR]

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hmmm.....was that a war or an operation?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, we invaded, overcame resistance, arrested members of the military government, occupied the country and installed a friendly "ruling council". How is that different from Iraq again?

[Cyrus]

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Please point to a war where there was less civilian tragedy. Can you point to was where less invading soldiers died? Can you point to a war with less prisoner abuse?

[/ QUOTE ] The war in Iraq is sold to the American public -and the world in general- like frozen food is sold at the local supermarket: sanitized, clean, and with the best of intentions. However, as wars inevitably are, this war is dirty, full of atrocities and with civilians getting the shaft more than anybody else.

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[Since] when is an article [by] the ultra liberal Molly Ivins a "revelation"?

[/ QUOTE ]I put up in my OP two "developing" stories, and a commentary about the already known incident in Haditha. I believe that both the revelations abt Balad and Hamandiya and the insightful commentary abt Haditha are important.

Sorry if I misled you in reading something by an "ultra liberal". Scrub hard in the shower. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Even if the allegations are true so what? ... A few deaths among 100,000+ soldiers is statistically irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]OK then, wake us up when the percentage reaches "relevant" proportions.

Only problem is, how will we know that "enough" atrocities have been committed if we don't pay attention to them as long as they are irrelevant" ?..