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#21
10-17-2007, 02:58 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] there isn't much point in 3betting light oop only to pussy out on semi-bad flops. there really aren't very many flops i can think of that i wouldn't cbet on, other than things like ddd or whatever. [/ QUOTE ] My main point of 3-betting light there was to take this down pf or with c-bets on flops on which i think i can fold out better hands. On this flop vs. a tag i dont see the point in betting, except protecting against AK. Please correct me if i'm wrong here. [/ QUOTE ] i think that its incorrect to think in terms of value in this sitaution. you're in a big pot, oop, with a marginal hand, versus a strong range. its not really the time to be worrying about value, in my opinion. the only question in my mind in situations like this is how often can i get the other guy to fold? that flop isn't that bad for cbetting, unless you know for a fact that this guy has an ultrapremium 3bet calling range. you also have outs and backdoor possibilities, so sometimes you're going to stack this guy or pick up enough equity on the turn that you can try to blow him off of his hand again. if the guy is calling with the range that you fear, you're not going to get to show your hand down often after checking the flop. 
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#22
10-17-2007, 04:17 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] there isn't much point in 3betting light oop only to pussy out on semi-bad flops. there really aren't very many flops i can think of that i wouldn't cbet on, other than things like ddd or whatever. [/ QUOTE ] My main point of 3-betting light there was to take this down pf or with c-bets on flops on which i think i can fold out better hands. On this flop vs. a tag i dont see the point in betting, except protecting against AK. Please correct me if i'm wrong here. [/ QUOTE ] i think that its incorrect to think in terms of value in this sitaution. you're in a big pot, oop, with a marginal hand, versus a strong range. its not really the time to be worrying about value, in my opinion. the only question in my mind in situations like this is how often can i get the other guy to fold? that flop isn't that bad for cbetting, unless you know for a fact that this guy has an ultrapremium 3bet calling range. you also have outs and backdoor possibilities, so sometimes you're going to stack this guy or pick up enough equity on the turn that you can try to blow him off of his hand again. if the guy is calling with the range that you fear, you're not going to get to show your hand down often after checking the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Still i disagree. Value is value, whether it's a big reraised pot or not. I go on a limp and say checking is more ev than betting. Please anyone prove me wrong. (Edit: just to make clear that i'm far from being sure about this, but i'd like some more ev motivated arguments)
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#23
10-17-2007, 04:41 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] there isn't much point in 3betting light oop only to pussy out on semi-bad flops. there really aren't very many flops i can think of that i wouldn't cbet on, other than things like ddd or whatever. [/ QUOTE ] My main point of 3-betting light there was to take this down pf or with c-bets on flops on which i think i can fold out better hands. On this flop vs. a tag i dont see the point in betting, except protecting against AK. Please correct me if i'm wrong here. [/ QUOTE ] i think that its incorrect to think in terms of value in this sitaution. you're in a big pot, oop, with a marginal hand, versus a strong range. its not really the time to be worrying about value, in my opinion. the only question in my mind in situations like this is how often can i get the other guy to fold? that flop isn't that bad for cbetting, unless you know for a fact that this guy has an ultrapremium 3bet calling range. you also have outs and backdoor possibilities, so sometimes you're going to stack this guy or pick up enough equity on the turn that you can try to blow him off of his hand again. if the guy is calling with the range that you fear, you're not going to get to show your hand down often after checking the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Still i disagree. Value is value, whether it's a big reraised pot or not. I go on a limp and say checking is more ev than betting. Please anyone prove me wrong. (Edit: just to make clear that i'm far from being sure about this, but i'd like some more ev motivated arguments) [/ QUOTE ] Checking the flop is giving up the pot. Why 3b oop light if you are going to give up the pot? You are putting yourself in very difficult situation for all of your chips, which should be your goal, not villain's. If you had bet the flop, you most likely wouldn't have posted the hand.
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#24
10-17-2007, 05:00 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
i know you didnt want a preflop chat, but does he normally raise limpers alot from the button? and also has he been raising alot in last few orbits?
it just seems very spewy if he hasnt been active. i mean hell he could have folded the last 2-3 orbits which would help narrow his range alittle. as for the flop, if im 3 betting oop, i have to lead at the flop with a cbet. as played that was a great turn card, and i would prolly shove because i porbably have some fold eq and i have alot of outs going to the river
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#25
10-17-2007, 05:01 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
[ QUOTE ]
Checking the flop is giving up the pot. [/ QUOTE ] Why is that? i could be trapping. i might just call if he bets. [ QUOTE ] Why 3b oop light if you are going to give up the pot? [/ QUOTE ] Firing away every time, cause you did 3-bet def. isnt good.
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#26
10-17-2007, 05:10 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
I don't have a problem w/ checking the flop. We're raising pf first: to take it down. Well, he called, so checking keeps us from getting bluffraised and gives villian a chance to bluff w/ his middle pocket pairs or other crap that missed (people call 3bets in position w/ so much gargage it seems). Plus, some TAG's will check behind if they have a worse hand here cuz they are always afraid of getting c/raised.
I like leading turn for value cuz his calling range will be much wider since we checked flop. If he pushes turn we're crushed anyway and can fold. Sure, we're not gonna be able to complete our draw, but c/calling just makes our hand transparent imo and allows us to get bluffed off a lot of rivers. I dunno. AJ's post below makes since too. I'm hungover and there is no easy way to play this OOP.
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#27
10-17-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
Well, your thinking is a little muddy here rb. You threw ABC out the window when you 3b preflop and got called because this should be a fold pf. Now, you are trying to ABC up the joint and get to showdown with a mediocre hand OOP trying to find the best EV way possible to do that.
Here's my thought process. 1. I 3b pf light. OK, I hope to take it down right here and I will a fair amount of the time. 2. Oops, I got called but I flop a little something. I'm betting the flop to take it down a fair amount. I built it pf, so let's grab it. tbh, I don't care what he has...he'll tell me on the flop. I'm not trying to eek value out of 99/TT or anything fancy. CB, ship me the pot, next hand. 3. If he raises me on the flop, I have an easy fold... (but let's say he calls there) 4. Now we go into meta-mode. 8,9,T,J and spades I push (I size my flop bet so this is doable). Other cards I likely check fold. It's a little built in safety net because you aren't going crazy on every turn, just some of them. 5. IMO one of the "tricks" of poker is to play a hand other than the actual hand that you have. If I get to the spot where I push turn, I'm playing it exactly like I would if I have QQ/JJ which is a very plausible hand for you to have. And, I'm usually going to have outs vs his range. And he has to fold some of his range that beats us like better Jacks and maybe KQ. Once you check flop, check turn you ain't got squat because you'd never play JJ+ that way. I'd rather play it aggressively like I hold JJ and if I have to show it down it should, at the least, be a help for my image. I think overall my plan here is +EV. Is it the most +EV? Well, that's not so much a concern when you 3b J8s pf OOP.
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#28
10-17-2007, 05:15 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
wow great post ajmargarine
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#30
10-17-2007, 08:40 PM
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Re: NL200 reraised pot with 2nd pair oop
[ QUOTE ]
Checking the flop is giving up the pot. Why 3b oop light if you are going to give up the pot? You are putting yourself in very difficult situation for all of your chips, which should be your goal, not villain's. If you had bet the flop, you most likely wouldn't have posted the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Irrespective of this hand, your ideas on what constitutes "giving up the pot" are pretty misguided.
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