AQ hand, $475 sat. What are my options?

[PrayingMantis]

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I guess what it all boils down to for me here is if you don't like a flop like this one, then why are you calling the PFR at all?

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I wish poker was that simple. Problem is that it isn't. AQ is a tough hand to play here to begin with with this particular action PF and structure, and I knew it when I made the PF call. I knew I might very well find myslef in a tricky spot. I usualy don't try to avoid tricky spots just because they are tricky, but it might be true that in such a spot at a sat it's better simply to avoid it. In any case I don't agree with a line of reasoning that says something like "if you don't like this flop why call PF at all, that's the flop you're waiting for etc". Good players should have an ability to reevaluate their situation constantly, and even (in some cases, not necessarily here) make a laydown after seeing a flop they were supposed to "like".

[PrayingMantis]

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After you call the flop, you have somewhat but not too much over a PSB left*, and nothing worse pays off any more** unless it hits some sort of dumb 3-5 outer, but AJ probably still calls a shove because lol donkaments. Occasionally you'll even get lucky and shut out KhQh or something like that.

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OK so you're seeing a turn push as a vbet vs AJ (that's our most optimistic calling hand that is behind, and it probably calls a c/r on the flop too, if it calls on turn. I doubt if it calls at all with this structure tho), and some kind of a vbet (that doesn't want a call actually) vs. KQhh that you've mentioned. Obviously the guy who folds KQhh and the guy who calls AJ are two different guys, maybe that's the problem I have with this particular analysis, although I see your points.

Here's another way to look at it: I think that if you take the c/call line on the flop against the PFR, the push-turn line achives so little against any particular player with one specific behaviour, that a check (again) might on average achieve more, if only against someone who might check behind OR bluff again OR call a riv bet with a bigger range (that will fold to a turn bet) if he doesn't buy your late v-bet line. I'm not sure tho.

[adanthar]

The turn isn't a value bet, it's a push out worse hands with outs and occasionally get a call from one anyway bet.

Nothing you beat is paying a decent bet off anyway so what you do is almost irrelevant, but at least you don't give some weird hand 5 free outs.

[PrayingMantis]

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The turn isn't a value bet, it's a push out worse hands with outs and occasionally get a call from one anyway bet.

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I'd think that in the wide range between a v-bet and a bluff, what you describe here is more of a v-bet, at least in the sense that the value you gain is from hands that are behind (whether they call incorrectly or fold incorrectly). You certainly gain nothing here ftom hands that are ahead and fold, that is, there's no bluff value, plus there's the danger of making hands with 2-outs fold instead of letting them the chance to keep representing the ace (especially if villain is retarded, as you said).


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Nothing you beat is paying a decent bet off anyway so what you do is almost irrelevant, but at least you don't give some weird hand 5 free outs.

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So you are saying that when there's very little difference in the EV of different lines, in a sat situation like this it's probably better simply to take a line that shuts down more drawing hands (out of villain's range) on the turn, even if they're drawing rather thin.

[MLG]

ad,
I dont see your line as any better than cr jamming on the flop with this board. I think its slightly worse because there are more hands that we are ahead of but will catch up on the turn and smack us, but wont put more money in otherwise, than there are hands that are behind us that will call on the turn but not the flop. and there are no cards that come that let us check fold.

[adanthar]

I'd CR jam an underbet a lot. With a real bet into 2 people, I tend to think Ax is more likely and jamming the turn makes it harder to get away from than CR'ing the flop. But that's why I put c/something in my OP, FWIW.

[PrayingMantis]

I decided to check. UTG+1 bet 5000. He wasn't a particularly fast or slow about making the bet. Now as I said the guy was playing aggressively in earlier stages, but toned down quite a bit since then.

Button folded.

Any changes in anyone's plan?

(I wont be back here for at least a few hours, but it shouldn't change much I think...)

[lemonPeel]

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I guess what it all boils down to for me here is if you don't like a flop like this one, then why are you calling the PFR at all?

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I wish poker was that simple. Problem is that it isn't. AQ is a tough hand to play here to begin with with this particular action PF and structure, and I knew it when I made the PF call. I knew I might very well find myslef in a tricky spot. I usualy don't try to avoid tricky spots just because they are tricky, but it might be true that in such a spot at a sat it's better simply to avoid it. In any case I don't agree with a line of reasoning that says something like "if you don't like this flop why call PF at all, that's the flop you're waiting for etc". Good players should have an ability to reevaluate their situation constantly, and even (in some cases, not necessarily here) make a laydown after seeing a flop they were supposed to "like".

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Putting yourself in situations to make mistakes is how you learn!! Most likely, you will become a better player after this. And going by all the discussion so far, I reckon you have.