Since when is top set a tough hand?

[benwood]

Raising p/f on the button with this many players in is substancially better,imo.

On the flop,with perhaps the best hand now & only a 2 to 1 dog to fill up in a 5-handed pot,I will raise this automatically.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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Just call, and charge the max on the turn if it's safe (non 4, 5, 9, T, spade)

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The problem with just calling is that 5-ways you won't be getting turn raises in often enough unless your hand isn't the best.

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I agree with Josh that this is a good spot to just call. There's a bunch of cards that come off we hate. But also a bunch we like where it's not likely to get ch'd around and you'll still have the best hand when someone bets.

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If the hero had 2 pair Josh would be right. With a set, Josh is wrong. Raising the flop is the only play here.

[Josh W]

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Just call, and charge the max on the turn if it's safe (non 4, 5, 9, T, spade)

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The problem with just calling is that 5-ways you won't be getting turn raises in often enough unless your hand isn't the best.

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I agree with Josh that this is a good spot to just call. There's a bunch of cards that come off we hate. But also a bunch we like where it's not likely to get ch'd around and you'll still have the best hand when someone bets.

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If the hero had 2 pair Josh would be right. With a set, Josh is wrong. Raising the flop is the only play here.

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No.

With 2 pair, there are virtually no safe turn cards (offsuit deuces and treys). See, if everybody is playing along, Q8 and K7 and A6 are all being played. As such, any overcard is a virtual scarecard. Your only hope with two pair is that raising will get the K7s outta the mix. When a scare card comes on the turn, it will be a borderline decision as to whether or not you have the odds to draw to improve.

With a set, you are going to see the river, virtually every time (the exception being when the 9s comes and it's 3-cold to you on the turn). You have virtually no hope of reducing the field given your position (note that if you were UTG+1, raising would be correct) on the flop. If a good turn comes, you can reduce the field (get the naked Tens or Fives to fold) then. Plus, if you fill on the turn, the biggest draws will pay a ton while drawing dead.

The upside of raising on the flop is minimal. You can't get any live draws out, unless you are already behind. All you can do is build a huge pot so all draws will see you to the river.

Plus, you are putting in a lot more money on the flop when there's a 50% (ish) chance that you will be behind on the turn. When this happens, you'll also be paying through the nose on the turn.

This hand is showdown poker. There won't be any bluffing...the best hand is going to win. YOu win money at showdown poker by putting in the most when ahead and the least when behind. You maximize this ratio by calling the flop. Plus, by calling the flop, you gain a small sliver of a chance of getting a draw to fold on the turn.

Josh

[luegofuego]

huhhh??!? its a sick juicy game, EVERYONE limped preflop and 300 people called the flop and u dont wanna charge them while having 33% equity and possibly the best hand already? the game is obviously filled with retards, u should WELCOME the utg 3bet since people wont fold anyway. not raising the flop just baffles me.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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With 2 pair, there are virtually no safe turn cards (offsuit deuces and treys). See, if everybody is playing along, Q8 and K7 and A6 are all being played. As such, any overcard is a virtual scarecard. Your only hope with two pair is that raising will get the K7s outta the mix. When a scare card comes on the turn, it will be a borderline decision as to whether or not you have the odds to draw to improve.



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Wait a second, How would you play two pair here? To make things simple imagine you have top two on this flop.

BTW, Im really too lazy to explain to you Josh why you are blantantly wrong. This is basically poker101 stuff and I consider not raising the flop with 4 people already committed a serious error here. If you dont understand why raising the flop is the best play I cant really help you other than to say you need to study this game more.

For a better understanding on why this flop should be raised combine Dazarath's post and Entity's 10:19PM post.

Also throw in the fact that there could easily be 1 to 2 people, out of the 4 players committed to the pot, drawing close to dead to your hand who will gladly call a flop raise but may not call a turn bet and lets not forget that sometimes raising the flop will allow you the option to see a free river should a spade,9,5 hits, and the picture becomes that much clearer.

The bottom line is getting 4-1 on your money with top set, you should be raising the flop no matter what the board looks like. Not everybody is going to have a strong draw against your hand. Those people who are calling the flop with weak hands/draws, who are drawing thin, need to be charged right away on the flop before they get a chance to fold the turn.

Honestly for anyone who is suggesting to just call the flop in this situation I strongly question how strong your game is becuz this is a fundamentally easy situation to handle. For those out there who are aspiring to play expertly the first step is to get the fundamentals down. Those who dont understand why this flop must be raised are not even past that first stage. I promise anyone who is reading this post, there is no expert player in the world who would not raise this flop becuz expert players dont make these kind of simple mistakes. They have this part of their game down cold.

I find it ironic that the title of this thread is "Since when is top set a tough hand?" The truth is, this hand isnt tough to play at all.

[jba]

ILP I agree with you 100% on raising the flop but you are coming across as a real [censored] here. there's no reason to take that tone, it accomplishes nothing.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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ILP I agree with you 100% on raising the flop but you are coming across as a real [censored] here. there's no reason to take that tone, it accomplishes nothing.

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Ha! The reason I sometimes come across as a real [censored] is becuz I am a real [censored]. Most of my posts are very diplomatic and polite, but sometimes I get frustrated and then my true colors surface.

[jkamowitz]

First off, I always appreciate good analysis in any of these threads, so thank you guys for putting some serious thought into it.

I raised, utg 3-bet, a few folds, one player called, and I called.

Turn brought a forth spade and it went bet, call, call.

River came an 8 and well we all know what happened.

Theoretical question: What happens if it's still a family pot but on the flop utg bets, and only one caller. Still an auto-raise?

[daveT]

There are exactly 22 cards in the deck that will totally pulverize your hand, and you will be stuck drawing for a better river. No matter the results of this hand you are best off just calling here, as you RIPO has to suck. I think that if you were to legitimately run Poker Stove you would have to add all sooted gappers and "straight" cards, without relevance to position. The best reason I could see to raise it to take on the free card because passive people like to slooooowPlay, but I doubt that UTG is a passive type, as he is betting first into a field of six.

With one caller, the hands you are against become much less random. I would be more likely to raise in this position, as I would be sure that all gutters have been dropped, and the lone caller is more likely to be drawing. As for UTG, well, I would hope he is jamming a draw, but if he raises and the caller drops, I would cap it off.

With the turn card, cc, and the river.... don't smile.

[SA125]

Do I hate the raise with the best hand? No. But do I think I'm hurting the dr's with it? No way.

Some are missing or dismissing just how the extra money on the flop effects the dr's.

As more money goes in on the flop, the overlay for the dr's gets bigger. With this many people in the pot, they're getting a BETTER price on their hand when more money goes in. Not a worse one.

The fl dr's are 2-1 to hit by the river and they're not folding before it. Sure, if the str or fl hits the turn you have re-draws and you'll be getting a good price on it.

But the fact is I'd have no problem putting in extra sb's with a fl dr on this flop. I'd like it so much I'd raise it myself. Makes the overlay even better. You guys make it sound like it hurts them. It doesn't.