I hate this spot

[elena_elphie]

Continuing on, I decide c/f and c/r are both incorrect, therefore I c/c.

Turn is 2s, putting the spade flush on the board, we have "improved", giving us a mediocre one card flush draw to the Ts to go with our middle pair. We may have 13 outs, and we may be drawing dead, we may be ahead of a small pair or gutshot(with or without spade draw). What is your plan now?

[BigBadBabar]

c/c c/c and see river

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Continuing on, I decide c/f and c/r are both incorrect, therefore I c/c.

Turn is 2s, putting the spade flush on the board, we have "improved", giving us a mediocre one card flush draw to the Ts to go with our middle pair. We may have 13 outs, and we may be drawing dead, we may be ahead of a small pair or gutshot(with or without spade draw). What is your plan now?

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you don't fold, all of your options are good here on the turn (BTW, your flop line was the correct one). You should decide how your opponent will react if you spring to life and bet out - for many players, this is the best idea, and is probably my preferred play. Call a raise, of course. This is the line you should take against the toughest players, in general.

You can also check with the intention of raising. The risk you run is that the hand gets checked through, which will happen if your opponent has a weak hand with a spade (even just the bare Ks). Of course, many opponents will try to fire off a bet here to win the pot, so you might get them stuck with a check raise. The more aggressive the player, the better this bet is.

If your opponent is really tight and almost certainly has the A here, checking and calling is correct (some guys will only fire on the turn with an A or better, which lets you know where you stand in the hand). In this case, you should probably fire out on the river if you improve.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Continuing on, I decide c/f and c/r are both incorrect, therefore I c/c.

Turn is 2s, putting the spade flush on the board, we have "improved", giving us a mediocre one card flush draw to the Ts to go with our middle pair. We may have 13 outs, and we may be drawing dead, we may be ahead of a small pair or gutshot(with or without spade draw). What is your plan now?

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you don't fold, all of your options are good here on the turn (BTW, your flop line was the correct one). You should decide how your opponent will react if you spring to life and bet out - for many players, this is the best idea, and is probably my preferred play. Call a raise, of course. This is the line you should take against the toughest players, in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

JA,

Can you explain your reasoning for wanting to bet/call(down?) the turn? Do you like the induced bluff equity? Or are you trying to prevent a check through from some range of hands? It seems to me that we are usually beat or up against only 2-3 outs, so a check through isn't that dangerous. Also, what really good hands would you take this line with?

Thanks,
gm

[Garland]

Seeing how you're going heads up against a decent opponent raising UTG, I would fold this relative piece of cheese pre-flop.

Check-calling the flop is fine. Once you pick up the ok flush draw, I wouldn't mind leading the turn...that is if opponent isn't ultra aggressive on the turn (frequently raising donk turn bets). You could get some better hands to fold, especially if said opponent doesn't have a spade in hand.

Garland

[RobA]

This is a good thread, a good spot to discuss. I am quite sure that i've lost a ton of money banging my head against the wall, being over-aggressive, in spots exactly like this.

I've gotten killed on 2nd-pair, or bigpair/bad kicker, type hands in the BB. After a lot of thought I've become convinced that to just c/f lots of these flops wouldn't be too bad. I think we need some equity analysis to support c/f. So the post by Analyst (that we have 40% vs. villain's range) is helpful, but i'm still not sure how to interpret it. Also, I think Private Joker's point -- why call the pre-flop raise if you can hit the flop and feel awkward about the spot -- would be an argument against c/f. But the respose is that you don't call the pfr for this flop to hit. You call it for when the board is J or T high against his 66, 77, 88, 99, AK, AQ, or KQ, or for the times you hit open-ended straight draws, or straights that always include hands in his range.

After you c/c the flop, and spike a spade I think you should still c/c the turn. Look at Stox p.273. Some good stuff on how just cuz you have a flush draw too doesn't mean its time to ram and jam.

If you brick the river, I dunno. I'll leave that up the 2+2 experts. I think you stick to the plan when the flop hit - c/c, c/c, c/c.

[Michael Davis]

WTF do you guys seriously fold this preflop in a 6-handed game?

-Michael

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF do you guys seriously fold this preflop in a 6-handed game?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a feeling everyone who folds 6-handed would only play 6-handed while they were waiting for the game to fill up like OP. Then again if the other 5 players are doing the same it may well be right.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF do you guys seriously fold this preflop in a 6-handed game?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You have to look at the competition: solid player UTG. You're going to make a lot of 2nd place hands and be stuck in sticky situations like this OOP.

Yes, while you have to loosen your standards for 6-max and upgrade hand values, you still have to play the player.

If the player in question is poor, loose, passive, a maniac, or a pay-off station then by all means defend.

Garland

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF do you guys seriously fold this preflop in a 6-handed game?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for everyone else, but my point wasn't that I fold preflop -- I'm not sure; it would probably depend on my read, my feel, the game flow, texture, my image, etc -- but my point is that if I *am* calling with it, it's because I'd be comfortable playing on with an AJx flop. If I got scared by overcards to my jack, then I have no business calling with it in the first place.