Where Did God Go For These People? - Page 2

Matt R. · #11 03-31-2006, 07:35 AM

You're missing the point. He's saying that God and prayer are concerned with a person's "eternal salvation", and not concerned with the results of some pseudo-scientific study which picks random religious groups, tells them to pray for someone they've never even heard of until now in the name of some retarded study, and expect these actions to force "God's hand". I don't believe anyone has ever claimed you can measure "prayer" in a controlled, double-blind, white lab coat, statistically analyzed study. We're not measuring natural laws here, we're attempting to measure intervention by a deity. What makes you think that the creator of all of reality will conform to a random scientific study when those involved in the praying have no legitimate faith behind the praying? Even though they chose the people from religious groups, it's pretty obvious they would just be going through the motions if they're only praying for some study.

Basically, it is silly to try to measure anything involved with the intervention of God. It's not like his choices and thus the times when he intervenes are governed by some law we can measure. And even if the study did point to some divine intervention, it's pretty clear that those who did not want to believe would explain it away by probability and small sample size. It is pointless for either side of the debate.

MidGe · #12 03-31-2006, 07:42 AM

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I don't believe anyone has ever claimed you can measure "prayer" in a controlled, double-blind, white lab coat, statistically analyzed study. We're not measuring natural laws here, we're attempting to measure intervention by a deity. What makes you think that the creator of all of reality will conform to a random scientific study

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I agree entirely and conversely you should not use a god concept to deny scientific reality. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Matt R. · #13 03-31-2006, 07:49 AM

Agreed. I believe someone posted a lecture from Hawking awhile back that says something along the lines of you shouldn't invoke God in a scientific study because then it ceases to be scientific (paraphrased.... most likely poorly [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). If God does not exist, then it's clearly silly to invoke an argument involving God when explaining science. If he does exist, there's no way we can expect to predict his actions (and thus when/where/how he intervenes), so it's pointless to include the concept of God in scientific studies in this instance as well. We should stick to what we can measure.

oneeye13 · #14 03-31-2006, 11:17 AM

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patients who were told that study volunteers were praying for them were actually more likely to suffer a medical complication

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i would be mad as hell if a doctor told me they had people praying for me.

yukoncpa · #15 03-31-2006, 03:43 PM

“The prayer of faith shall save the sick”, James 5:14-15. A bible passage used by many parents to allow their children to suffer and die rather than taking them to a “scientific” medical facility.
I guess those Christian folk they culled for the study had no faith. Either that, or God ran as soon as he spotted that some devious person was trying to gain a better understanding of him, rather than fulfilling the promise he clearly made in the bible.

kurto · #16 03-31-2006, 05:37 PM

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Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God.

It is entirely plausible that God would abstain from helping people who pray not out of faith but unfaithful inquiry.

If a test like this showed a correlation between prayer and healing, it would suggest that the power of prayer lies in something besides the Christian God.

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This struck me as funny.

So, God WOULD normally help these people (who don't even know that they're in a study), but he would choose not to in order to spite the people who are looking to see if prayer works?

Furthermore, with this logic we must conclude that God says, "Pray... but don't pay attention to see if it works... cause if you stop to see if I'm answering your prayers, I won't."

And regarding the OP questions... no study, no matter how thorough or conclusive, will ever change the mind of believers. In order to have faith, they had to throw logic out long time ago...

yukoncpa · #17 03-31-2006, 06:00 PM

"Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God."

Where are you coming up with this new commandment? A more appropriate passage for the OP is: “The prayer of faith shall save the sick”, James 5:14-15. For my comments on this; See below.

Utah · #18 03-31-2006, 07:22 PM

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I don't believe anyone has ever claimed you can measure "prayer" in a controlled, double-blind, white lab coat, statistically analyzed study.

[/ QUOTE ]Why not try it? What is there it to fear? Why does science attempt to find the answer to things and to constantly challenge assumptions and previous thinking where religion has a violent opposition to challenging the standard religious view? Why is the approach to religion so fundamentally different? Why doesnt religion attempt to seek the truth as opposed to simply trying to quickly dismiss everything that points out potential flaws in religions and beliefs in God?

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We're not measuring natural laws here, we're attempting to measure intervention by a deity.

[/ QUOTE ]Does not a God supposedly control natural law? Thus, isnt any attempt to measure natural law attempting to measure an aspect of God?

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And even if the study did point to some divine intervention, it's pretty clear that those who did not want to believe would explain it away by probability and small sample size. It is pointless for either side of the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]So, we should not be for the pursuit of truth because it is sometimes hard, messy, and ugly?

surftheiop · #19 03-31-2006, 07:51 PM

A bible passage used by many parents to allow their children to suffer and die rather than taking them to a “scientific” medical facility.

Thats just flat out untrue there might be one or two denominations that would believe something like this, to say Christains as a whole are like this would be like saying all whites are supporters of the KKK.

yukoncpa · #20 03-31-2006, 08:10 PM

I wasn't trying to be untrue or misleading. I never mentioned all Christians. But as you pointed out, some denominations, such as; The body of Christ, Bible Readers Fellowship, Christian Science, Some Jehova's Witnesses, etc., reject modern medicine because God promised, in the bible that the sick would be healed through prayer. These people all apparently have faith and are being mislead by the word of God. Not one child should have to suffer because his parents have faith in prayer over medical science. Studies such a the one Mrs. Utah posted will hopefully benefit some of these ignorant people.