Party .50/1 K10o - Kind of a play along....

[Rushinankil]

with a flop of Th Ks 2s

anyone holding QJ J9 AQ AJ or Q9 has a straight draw

and of course anyone holding 2 spades will have a flush draw

so you bet so they'll either fold or pay to play (they'll always call people at these always, always! call)

[sean c]

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A few things to consider.

The preflop limp is very read dependent, because UTG and UTG+1 limped. These are the two players who should be playing the tightest at the table so unless they are very loose players you'll often find at least one of your cards dead versus something like KQ/KJ/AT or even worse the occasional TT/AK. That said I don't mind the limp, just be careful.

On the flop you must raise. Think of the number of hands that hit this flop. AK/AQ/AJ/AT/KQ/KJ/KT/QJ/QT/JT/T9/any 2 spades. There are quite a few turn cards which are going to give you a headache. Any broadway is going to be trouble and any 9 could potentially bring in the straight.

On the turn it is a bet and a raise to you. UTG could have a flush draw with the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AQ, AJ. He'd often check/raise QJ here as well as there's a good chance of trapping for double bets. So I'm not too worried about him. UTG+1 is more of a concern. We're basically hoping for a protection raise with AQ/AJ, but why would he bet the flop with those? If he semi-bluffed the flop with an oesd, it just came in. If he bet KQ on the flop raising the turn would be silly as he's putting in money with a hand drawing to few outs. The only likely hands I can give him are KT/AK/AT/TT/QJ/22. The pot is small and there's a decent chance of being outdrawn even when you are ahead. It sucks but I would just let it go, make a note on the players and move on. If the pot were larger or if I had some sort of note/stat on UTG+1 that he was slightly loose or aggressive I'd go ahead and 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great reply. Very well said deception.

[OrigamiSensei]

Not grunching here as I have a few things to discuss.

First, someone said fold pre-flop. I simply can't imagine folding KTo in the button in this situation in your average loose micro game. A lot of the fish don't think about position when they are going in with hands thus you can't assume the UTG and UTG+1 are sitting there with super hands. In a tighter, higher stakes game I can understand the thought of folding crossing one's mind.

Next, on the flop I see a number of people claiming there is no hand protection element to a raise. First of all with obvious straight and flush draws I think going for overcalls is a recipe for disaster. This hand is vulnerable enough that I'd like to knock out one or two opponents if I can. It is, I hope, an obvious raise for value but there is a component of hand protection here as well. There are 4.5SB in the pot at the flop. UTG+1 bets to make it 5.5 and if you merely call BB and UTG are getting 6.5-1 and 7.5-1, respectively - more than enough to make a flush or OES draw mighty enticing. With a raise the numbers become 7.5-2 and 9.5-2 which means relative to flop-to-turn odds you have priced out both the flush and OES draw for BB and the OES draw for UTG assuming BB calls, both otherwise. Granted, it's close enough that they come along on implied odds alone but you may as well take the edge if you have it. My main question is what to do if an opponent 3-bets your raise. Against three opponents I suspect I simply call. Heads up I probably cap. Not sure what to do about UTG+1 and one other opponent. I'd like to see some discussion of that issue.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
My main question is what to do if an opponent 3-bets your raise. Against three opponents I suspect I simply call. Heads up I probably cap. Not sure what to do about UTG+1 and one other opponent. I'd like to see some discussion of that issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd definitely cap the flop with top 2 here against 3 opponents. There is likely to be a significant amount of dead money going in with more than 1 opponent and the chance that we have the best hand is huge (consider that hands like AA/AK/KQ/QJ are often going to 3-bet).

Notice the ace on the turn is the worst card in the deck for us because it improves QJ/AA/AK/AT. If the turn were a Q/J/9 I'd be be less worried because the possibility of a worse 2-pair emerges.