TT in small blind with lotsa limpers

[janne_oksanen]

I asked that because I ran a couple of scenarios in the stove and noticed that you could be pretty dead on a flop like that even if you're ahead at the time. Someone with a flush draw and overcards is a huge favourite over the TT in a multi way pot and then there are going to be 1 or 2 other ppl who caught a pair and are now calling you down. Your equity could be really marginal and you wouldn't even know it.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked that because I ran a couple of scenarios in the stove and noticed that you could be pretty dead on a flop like that even if you're ahead at the time. Someone with a flush draw and overcards is a huge favourite over the TT in a multi way pot and then there are going to be 1 or 2 other ppl who caught a pair and are now calling you down. Your equity could be really marginal and you wouldn't even know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

you could be dead with AA on a K72 flop with someone has 77. are you folding there too?

instead of making a comment like "you could be dead" I suggest you actually calculate the amt of equity you need to make calling/betting/raising on this flop correct.

and assuming someone has a flush draw with 2 overs is never correct in limit hold em. even if it were the case you have 50% equity against such a hand.

finally, you say "your equity could be marginal." how much equity do you need here before folding becomes a mistake?

poker is a game of pot odds. whenever you fold getting the correct pot odds to call, its a mistake. it doesnt matter if you have 50% equity or 25% equity.

ps - are you folding A8 on this flop for one bet? K7s? if so then i really start to worry if you know how to play this game.

[Fantam]

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What do you do when you get a fair flop like 8s7s2d and you don't have a spade?

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Janne, you bet/raise and should be happy to, when you get a flop like that.

I would also suggest that you try to do some of the equity calculations which Kit mentioned.

Edit: Let me try to help.

With 6 opponents you are contributing about 14% of the bets to the pot. If you had 3 opponents you would be contributing 25% of the bets to the pot. etc.

The above is your % share of bets in the pot depending on your number of opponents and is known as your pot equity.

Next you need to try to determine the likelihood that you either have the best hand or will still have/improve to the best hand by the river. Pokerstove can sometimes help you to do this, but you need to be able to estimate a reasonable hand range for your opponents to have.

If your estimate for the % likelihood that you have (or will have/improve to) the best hand is higher than your % pot equity, then you have what is known as an equity edge.

When you think that it is likely that you do have an equity edge, you should almost always be betting or raising.

So, with 6 opponents, you would need for your TT to be the best hand by the river > 14% of the time to make betting profitable. If your flop bet then caused say 3 or your opponents to fold, you would then only need your TT to hold up > 25%. etc...

Anyway, I hope that this helps.

[Sushiglutton]

I insta raise pf for value. The hand will be hard to protect anyway. Just build the pot with lots of equity.

[I R BABOON]

I wonder what people think of check/raising the flop?

I guess you sorta need an ideal situation for this though. Say something like checked to someone in late position who bets, so you can raise and hopefully force a few passive players out. Plus maybe even get a free card on the turn. (There's kinda allot of prerequisites to this, isn't it? :P)

[Sushiglutton]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what people think of check/raising the flop?

I guess you sorta need an ideal situation for this though. Say something like checked to someone in late position who bets, so you can raise and hopefully force a few passive players out. Plus maybe even get a free card on the turn. (There's kinda allot of prerequisites to this, isn't it? :P)

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Yes, the probem is that we have no idea ho is going to bet. For a protection CR to work u generally need a PFR from late position who will often c-bet.
Now we might aswell bet. Perhaps the next player raises and 'helps' us.

[MoonOrb]

Fair enough, but with this flop your pot equity hasn't gone up at all...it's still about 19%. If a safe card comes on the turn, then equity goes up to about...well, only 30% or so, a bit more if someone drops out of the pot. My initial thought that was you'd trade off your equity advantage on the flop for a larger equity advantage on the turn where you can probably checkraise and make everyone pay off two big bets.

But it's looking more like the advantage on the turn isn't that much greater so you might as well push whatever you have on the flop, anyway.

Although, if even one player has folded, if a safe card comes on the turn, our equity is about 35%.

So it's not that I'd want to just play weak-tight, but I'd want to try for the larger equity edge on the turn. Am I right in concluding that this is a situation where I should push the thin value edge with a raise on the flop rather than risking not pushing that edge for the chance of a greater edge on the turn because the turn edge won't be that great?